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  • From: "TradingPostPaul" <tradingpost@riseup.net>
  • To: livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Ethanol's Dirty Little Secrets ---
  • Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2006 10:24:30 -0600


I will reply though I tire of repeating what's so obvious to many others.
Wood waste has many other important commercial uses, and you don't want to
live downwind from large scale burning of wood and coal, nor do you want to
see strip mined hilltops all around you. I see all sides of these issues.
The science and politics is already out there for all to see - if they want
to see. You just refuse to think of costs and consequences. And I'm not
going to keep responding to this unbroken string of failed arguments.

I recall all of that, but you carefully avoid responding to the problem of
suicidal amounts of valuable farm land (all the cropland in fact) that
would need to be diverted to ethanol crops, to make even a small dent in
our petroleum use. And I don't regard the rape of our farmlands for
ethanol as a "step in the right direction". If you really want to encourage
that then I suggest you get on the payroll at ADM or Cargill.

Protecting the land and sustaining ourselves is my priority and the reason
for this list. I suggest you make a choice, either to protect the land or
see how much ethanol you can squeeze out of it before it's all over. Your
call, Greg.

paul, tradingpost@riseup.net
---------------
The care of the Earth is our most ancient and most worthy, and after all
our most pleasing responsibility. To cherish what remains of it and to
foster its renewal is our only hope.
- Wendell Berry
*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

On 7/14/2006 at 10:52 PM Greg and April wrote:

>Did you miss the part that they are burning wood waste with the coal?
>
>Please recall that I also mentioned the local mass transient ( was run by
>the local government up to last fall ) started testing of electrical
>busses
>that use ethanol powered fuel cells a year and a half ago.
>
>I know we can't count on government, but, it's not like many parts of
>government are not at least exploring the use of alternative fuels, and
>it's
>a step in the right direction. Frankly I believe that they need all the

>encouragement they can get, just because there are to many people that are

>willing to criticize alternative fuels for what ever reason.
>
>Think about it, people will criticize the use of alternative fuels just
>because something as simple as distribution is not set up. Well if we
>keep criticizing it, they won't use it at all, and so no distribution will

>ever be set up. Just a nasty circle of negativity, that prevents
>anything
>from getting done.
>
>What if the early pioneers of no-till or permaculture listen to all the
>objections and the criticizing of their methods? It's the same way with

>alternative energy. I wouldn't be surprised if early oil drillers, had
>much the same problem with coal users and horse & buggy people.
>
>Greg H.
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "TradingPostPaul" <tradingpost@riseup.net>
>To: <livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org>
>Sent: Friday, July 14, 2006 21:30
>Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Ethanol's Dirty Little Secrets ---
>
>
>>
>> You're talking about energy conservation there. No alternative fuel
>> sources
>> involved. We need conservation, and desperately. It's equally obvious
>> utilities can't afford to invest in those conservation measures for the
>> whole country or any significant part of it, and simply won't. And for
>> coal to take up the slack in energy production they'd have to stripmine
>> tens of thousands of square miles and pollute like mad, which isn't
going
>> to happen. Nobody will rebut the unbelievably prohibitive cost of
>> alternative energy infrastructure, not on this list or any other list.
>>
>> You can't count on government, industry or utilities to save us from the
>> destruction that increasingly higher oil and gas prices is bringing.
>> Count
>> on yourself. I've brought up the ethanol business again just to make
the
>> point, nobody's coming to save us. We have ourselves, our families, our
>> communities. The sooner some of us learn to live on the land, relearn
>> what's been lost, and develop our community networks, the better.
>>
>> paul, tradingpost@riseup.net
>> ---------------
>> The care of the Earth is our most ancient and most worthy, and after all
>> our most pleasing responsibility. To cherish what remains of it and to
>> foster its renewal is our only hope.
>> - Wendell Berry
>> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********
>>
>> On 7/14/2006 at 8:52 PM Greg and April wrote:
>>
>>>You mean like the high up front cost?
>>>
>>>There are plenty of work arounds for that.
>>>
>>>A year ago last spring, my family received a new furnace free. The
>>>local
>>>utility works with a nonprofit organization to do a free heating
>>>evaluation,
>>>and air infiltration tests of the house. Because of the age and
>>>condition
>>>of the furnace, it eligible to be replaced, at low or no cost depending
>on
>>
>>>the income of the family. We fell in the no cost bracket. They
also
>>>provided blow-in insulation to areas of the house that had none and that
>>>we
>>>couldn't get to, and brought a crew in to seal the furnace ducts.
>>>
>>>Had we fallen into the low cost bracket, our bill would have remained
the
>>>same until the cost of the furnace was paid for by the savings the new
>>>furnace.
>>>
>>>The same program replaced all of the old toilets with low flush toilets,
>>>and
>>>added weather stripping around all of the doors, and most of the windows
>>>than needed it, and replaced our old refrigerator with a brand new one,
>>>because the old one used more than a given amount of electricity.
>>>
>>>What does the utility company get out it? Better efficiency of
>existing
>>
>>>electrical lines, with out having to upgrade them, lower cost because if
>a
>>
>>>sever cold spell comes they don't have to buy as much NG or electricity
>at
>>
>>>current market prices, and lower maintance cost for existing lines.
>>>According to the people I talked to, they estimate that they save about
>>>between $15 to $50 a year in maintaince and up grade costs, per house,
>>>that
>>>goes through the program.
>>>
>>>A program similar to this can help on a bigger scale.
>>>
>>>
>>>Granted it would be allot cheaper with new construction, but, I would
bet
>>>even the old construction could be upgraded, and if push came to shove I
>>>bet
>>>it would be.
>>>
>>>I don't know what it is like where you live, but, here we have 2 power
>>>plants, in town. One is a coal fired plant that they have been
>>>experimenting with adding wood waste to the coal ( more electricity -
for
>>>the same or less pollution ). The other is a NG/propane operation to
>>>take
>>>un-expected electrical demands so they don't have to buy more
electricity
>>>at
>>>current market prices instead of buying a couple of months a head of
>time,
>>
>>>when it's cheaper. Even if they only used the excess heat from the
>coal
>>
>>>plant, to heat the city and county down town, your only looking at less
>>>than
>>>a mile distance for 80% of the city and major county buildings - in most
>>>cases it's only a few hundred yards from the coal fired power plant
>>>property.
>>>
>>>If even only the city and county property, is heated, that is less tax
>>>money
>>>that is spent on fuel, and better efficiency from the entire system.
>>>
>>>Greg H.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
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