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livingontheland - Re: [Livingontheland] Ethanol a net energy loss

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Subject: Healthy soil and sustainable growing

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Chronological Thread  
  • From: "TradingPostPaul" <tradingpost@riseup.net>
  • To: livingontheland@lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [Livingontheland] Ethanol a net energy loss
  • Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 09:14:25 -0600


My replies interspersed.

paul, tradingpost@riseup.net
*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

On 4/30/2006 at 4:05 PM Keith Addison wrote:

>Indeed it's easily possible to use crop by-products and crop wastes
>for on-site energy production without cheating on soil fertility
>maintenance, the same as it's possible to sell crops off-farm without
>cheating on soil fertility maintenance. On a real farm there's always
>an ample array of choices and options on just what shall be deemed
>"production" and what "waste". If there were any basis to your view
>of it everything would have to be returned to the soil and I wonder
>what would be the point of farming in the first place.

I'm still waiting to hear *how* crops can be converted to ethanol without
losing something of what should returned to the soil, directly or by
composting. The sustainability struggle is to draw food from the land and
still replenish its organic content on an ongoing basis. If we also have to
get fuel materials from the soil, doesn't that make it even harder to keep up
its organic content? These are the questions that need answering, rather than
claims that "we've always been much more interested in Albert Howard. We
wouldn't do biofuels at all if they weren't entirely compatible". Tell us,
*how* are they compatible if we remove more than food from the soil, if we
also remove crop waste, corn, and sugarcane for ethanol production? And how
much of our corn and sugarcane and crop waste would have to be turned into
ethanol just to power one-tenth of our curret fuel usage?

No, I'm not defending our modern way of life or fossil fuel agriculture at
all. I'd rather see crops grown and transported and stored without any
fuel-powered machinery, ethanol or otherwise. I'm not interested in keeping
up the search for ways to stay addicted to the energy slaves of modern
technology. The country could do just fine with many millions more small
farms without fuel-powered machinery. And melt down those giant tractors and
combines.

>I must admit I'm a little puzzled by the quite widespread resistance
>to sustainable biofuels among organics people. After all it's the
>same issue. How can biofuels be sustainable if they're not grown
>sustainably? And which crop cannot be grown sustainably? Conversely,
>how can organic growing be sustainable if it's still plugged into the
>fossil-fuel energy system when it could so easily be independent, via
>air, fire, water, and, most certainly, earth. Off-topic on a soils
>list? Well, if you insist, and of course I'll defer and desist after
>this reply.

Maybe its because we're more concerned with growing food rather than
manufacturing fuel. Personally I don't use fuel-powered machinery or fossil
fuel-derived chemicals in growing and don't intend to. I do admit to using a
manufactured steel shovel and grid-tied electric well pump. And an old
recycled Ford pickup for short hops, but I've moved much closer to the city
to cut way down on fuel.

>It's strange that this resistance seems to be virtually confined to
>the US, where it's rather common, while elsewhere it might be just
>the odd individual. Are you aware that Dennis Avery takes the same
>stance as you do?

???

>Energy and food are much more closely linked than most people imagine.

I'm just not going to worry about producing fuel. I'm going to spend my time
and energy learning how to do without fuels. Personally I'd rather see the
economy go to wind powered electric and use no combustible fuels at all, or
very little.

In the end, we can't possibly produce enough ethanol crops to feed even a
fraction of our oil addiction, and learning to grow without fuel-powered
equipment will be forced on us eventually.

>Thankyou, I'll bow out now.

You're free to disagree about ethanol being off topic on a soils list, but
actually it's "Healthy soil and sustainable growing" rather than "Healthy
soil and sustainable growing and ethanol production". I've enjoyed the
discussion and I agree to disagree. Thanks.

>Best wishes
>
>Keith Addison
>Journey to Forever
>KYOTO Pref., Japan
>http://journeytoforever.org/
>






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