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  • From: Marcia <msmartin AT ccbeunet.br>
  • To: "Internetworkers: http://www.ibiblio.org/internetworkers/" <internetworkers AT lists.ibiblio.org>, Shea Tisdale <shea AT sheatisdale.com>
  • Cc: "'Internetworkers: http://www.ibiblio.org/internetworkers/'" <internetworkers AT lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: RE: [internetworkers] Marriage and religion
  • Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 18:16:20 -0200

According to: http://religion.aynrand.org/quotes.html

".... the claim that America was founded on Christianity is a myth. Many of
the Founding Fathers and Revolutionary War leaders were Deists, and upheld a
firm separation of church and state..."

Interesting article anyways.
Just my 0.02


Quoting Shea Tisdale <shea AT sheatisdale.com>:

> Steven Champeon wrote:
> > on Fri, Feb 06, 2004 at 11:27:14AM -0500, Shea Tisdale wrote:
> > > Just some questions and thoughts on this. Your statement seems awfully
> > > broad. Is it equally appalling to you that the country was founded
> > under
> > > the Christian belief that all men are created equal with Creator endowed
> > > rights?
> >
> > Um, that's not a Christian belief. That's Deist, if anything (the belief
> > in a Creator) and the idea of human equality is certainly not unique to
> > Christianity (Islam actually comes closer to this democratic equality than
> > Christianity, and the various Eastern religions, Buddhism, Taoism, etc. do
> > an even better job of it).
>
> It may be a deist belief or the belief of other religions, but it doesn't
> exclude it from also being a Christian belief. The question then becomes
> how many of the authors of those documents were Buddhist, Taoist, Islamic,
> etc. I think the answer is none. And since all of the founding fathers
> came from a Judeo/Christian background, I think the attribution of those
> concepts is appropriate.
>
> >And let's not forget that the same document
> > that proudly proclaimed the eqaulity of all men spoke nothing of women,
> > defined the natives as "merciless Savages", and the followup defined
> > slaves> and natives as having the value of two-fifths of a person.
> Granted, that
> > was a convenient arrangement directed specifically at determining the
> > population for election of representatives, but still.
>
> I didn't say that the founding fathers were perfect. But at the time they
> wrote the Declaration and Constitution, the rights of the people and the
> limitations of the government expressed their in were a drastic improvement
> compared to any other place on Earth.
>
> > Sorry, it just irks me when people ignore that this country was founded
> > by a group of highly educated men who, for the most part, were either
> > Deist, atheist, or otherwise rightly considered religion a scourge and
> > men's willingness to do battle over it a sad reflection of the ignorance
> > of the common. Read some Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson sometime.
>
> So in 1777 when the First Continental Congress called the Bible "the great
> political textbook of the patriots" and appropriated funds to import 20,000
> Bibles for the people, they were thinking of some Diest or atheist version I
> haven't heard of?
>
> And before they signed the Declaration of Independence when the Continental
> Congress called for "a day of fasting and prayer within the colonies,
> beseeching God to give guidance and direction as to whether they should
> secede from England, which Eastern religion were they thinking of?
>
> And as far as the founding fathers go, I think they were very intelligent
> individuals of conscience who, like many, wrote many things which can be
> construed any number of ways that someone might desire. So I'll offer some
> of their writings for consideration.
>
> Patrick Henry: "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this
> great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians, not on
> religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ! For this very reason peoples
> of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of
> worship here."
>
> John Adams: In a letter to Jefferson wrote, "The general principles on
> which the Fathers achieved independence, were . . . the general principles
> of Christianity."
>
> George Washington said, "It is impossible to rightly govern the world
> without God and the Bible."
>
> Thomas Jefferson: "The reason that Christianity is the best friend of
> government is because Christianity is the only religion that changes the
> heart."
>
> Jefferson is even quoted as having said, "I am a Christian, that is to say,
> a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."
>
> Jefferson was also uncomfortable with the concept of miracles and believed
> them to be made up, so he created his own version of the Bible where he
> excised all references to them. This book is known as The Jefferson Bible,
> The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth.
>
> Benjamin Franklin: "He who shall introduce into the public affairs the
> principles of a primitive Christianity, will change the face of the world."
>
> James Madison as President wrote: "The future and success of America is not
> in this Constitution but in the laws of God upon which this Constitution is
> founded."
>
> > And that's true regardless of how many times you read that nonsense that
> > Ashcroft spouts about how the Founders "had no King but Jesus". Bleah.
> > Wishful thinking is lovely, but let's not confuse it with the facts.
>
> Well since you mentioned the demon Ashcroft, I'll just quote the Bible
> itself. "You say you believe in God. Good. The demons also believe and
> tremble."
>
>
> >
> > --
> > hesketh.com/inc. v: (919) 834-2552 f: (919) 834-2554 w: http://hesketh.com
> > Book publishing is second only to furniture delivery in slowness. -b.
> > schneier
> > ---
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