Internetworkers: http://www.ibiblio.org/internetworkers/

[zman <zman AT gibbon.kungfumonkey.com>]

On Thu, 22 Jan 2004, David R.Matusiak wrote:
> Too awesome not to share!  Gotta love how Mr. Crisp describes the 
> "dregs of the programming world."  Apparently, Raleigh is waaaaaay too 
> counter-culture for this one...

Ok this guy really pisses me off. Especially as a tattooed, pierced freak.
Who knows what the hell he's doing and knows plenty more freaks who do as 
well. to quote their own site:

"PagePlanet Software, Inc. believes honor, respect, honesty, and hard work 
are admirable qualities that a business and its employees should observe. 
We believe in providing a rewarding work environment and fair compensation 
for our employees and a fair return to our owners."

BS, I wouldn't work for those bastards if they all have his attitude.
He deserves the dregs with his ass backwards BS. I believe in conveying a 
professional image/appearence. Also there are plenty of good programmers 
that I know that would happely work for $60k...


> > Date: Thu Jan 22, 2004  1:14:01  PM America/New_York
> > Subject: RTP business whines for cheap (and pretty) labor
> >
> > Bosses are feeling oppressed. It's not only that labor isn't cheap
> > enough (though Crisp whines plenty about that), it's also that
> >
> > Steve Crisp Wed, 21 Jan 2004 16:21:41 -0500
> >> Any ad I have placed has resulted in the dregs of the programming
> >> world beating a path to my door. The ones looking for jobs are grossly
> >> underqualified, undertrained, and mostly unemployable because they
> >> look and act like freaks. I really don't care how good someone may be
> >> if they are covered in tattoos, have spiked hair, and could not make
> >> it though a metal detector at an airport because of all their
> >> highly-visible piecings.
> >
> > -------- Original Message --------
> > Subject: this epitomizes the "tech labor shortage"
> > Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 22:49:10 -0800
> > From: Norm Matloff <matloff AT laura.cs.ucdavis.edu>
> >
> > I am posting the enclosed message with the permission of its author.
> >
> > For those of you readers who are not in the tech world, I could write
> > a long response, disagreeing with his comments on the "need" to hire
> > someone with certain very specific skill sets, but will just comment
> > on his point on C++ and Java. C++ and Java basically are 90% the same,
> > and the differences between them are such that a competent Java
> > programmer can become proficient in the special features of C++ quite
> > rapidly.
> >
> > As I said, I could go into much more detail on this, even quoting Bill
> > Gates to show he feels the same way about it as I do. Hiring a
> > programmer of good programming talent is far more important than
> > his/her knowing what a C++ "friend class" is (yes, that the name of a
> > certain C++ feature).
> >
> > But as I said, I won't elaborate on that, because Mr. Crisp finally
> > gets to the salient issue midway in his mail:
> >
> >     4. We program primarily for Macintosh equipment. With Apple
> >     dramatically ramping up their facilities it is almost impossible to
> >     find an Apple- experienced programmer who will work for anything
> >     less than $100,000 per year plus benefits -- a salary we can in no
> >     way afford to pay.
> >
> >     On the other hand, there are many, many foreign nationals living
> >     abroad who not only are more than capable of performing the tasks
> >     we need them to, but will work for reasonable salaries of $40,000
> >     to $60,000 per year.
> >
> > That is literally the bottom line. The so-called "labor shortage" is
> > not a shortage of labor; it's a "shortage" of CHEAP labor.
> >
> > By the way, in reading this employer's tirade about NCSU teaching Java
> > instead of C++, the reason some universities (though not mine)
> > switched to Java from C++ is that in 1998 the industry lobbyists
> > pushing Congress for a higher H-1B visa cap kept saying that there was
> > a shortage of Java programmers. It's all phony, folks.
> >
> > Norm
> >
> > ----- Forwarded message from Steve Crisp <crisp AT pageplanetsoftware.com>
> > From: Steve Crisp <crisp AT pageplanetsoftware.com>
> > To: <nsmatloff AT ucdavis.edu>
> > Subject: Exceptinos to your Washington Post comments
> > Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 16:21:41 -0500
> >
> > I have to take exception to the comments attributed to you in the
> > Washington Post today.
> >
> > I own a software development company. We are finding it impossible to
> > hire qualified American programmers for several reasons.
> >
> > 1. Many of the programmers currently out of work in this region do not
> > want to work. They accepted massive severance pay from their
> > respective companies and are (have been) sitting doing nothing for
> > almost two years now while living off their unemployment and
> > severance. Many of them took the opportunity to start their own
> > businesses and have no desire to work for someone else.
> >
> > 2. Of the programmers who are available to accept a position, they are
> > generally far less qualified. They received no severance because they
> > were not good enough to code in the first place when local
> > corporations started to lay people off.
> >
> > 3. For the past seven years, current and recent graduates of the UNC
> > system have been pumped full of Java rather than C++, the language we
> > program in. Java is complete trash and that is what NCSU is promoting
> > in the wake of their backroom deal with Sun several years ago. I don't
> > care how capable someone is, if they don't have extensive experience
> > in C++, we can't use them.
> >
> > 4. We program primarily for Macintosh equipment. With Apple
> > dramatically ramping up their facilities it is almost impossible to
> > find an Apple-experienced programmer who will work for anything less
> > than $100,000 per year plus benefits -- a salary we can in no way
> > afford to pay.
> >
> > On the other hand, there are many, many foreign nationals living
> > abroad who not only are more than capable of performing the tasks we
> > need them to, but will work for reasonable salaries of $40,000 to
> > $60,000 per year. It appears that most of the rest of the world is
> > still using C++ having not switched over to worthless Java and there
> > are far more Apple-oriented programmers available.
> >
> > Yet I can not bring these folks over to work since the INS has no
> > concept of the differences between programming languages. They presume
> > that since there are so many unemployed programmers available that I
> > should be able to find someone in the US to perform the task. And the
> > Employment Security Commission is even worse. I can't even count the
> > number of times I have placed a job search with the ESC for a C++
> > programmer and they have sent me someone with extensive Cobol
> > experience. They think that just because someone knows how to program
> > that that is enough to fulfill the job requirements. The ESC is a
> > complete waste of my time.
> >
> > Any ad I have placed has resulted in the dregs of the programming
> > world beating a path to my door. The ones looking for jobs are grossly
> > underqualified, undertrained, and mostly unemployable because they
> > look and act like freaks. I really don't care how good someone may be
> > if they are covered in tattoos, have spiked hair, and could not make
> > it though a metal detector at an airport because of all their
> > highly-visible piecings. For someone to do that to themselves
> > indicates a complete lack of self worth or common sense and is not
> > someone I want to be associated with.
> >
> > I should have the opportunity to hire anyone I wish from the
> > world-wide pool of potential applicants and hire them at what they are
> > willing to work for. Why should I be forced into an artificial hiring
> > matrix?
> >
> > -- 
> > Steve Crisp
> > PagePlanet Software, Inc.
> > 3300 Octavia Street
> > Raleigh, NC  27606
> > http://www.pageplanetsoftware.com
> > 919-233-1770
> >
> > ----- End forwarded message -----
> 
> ---
> Come and play at the InterNetWorkers Web site!  
> http://www.ibiblio.org/internetworkers/
> You are currently subscribed to InterNetWorkers mailing list
> To unsubscribe visit 
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/internetworkers
> 

-- 
Scott H. Zekanis
zman AT kungfumonkey.com
http://www.rod-o-rama.com
http://www.thehellbenders.com
1957 Buick Riviera Hardtop (2 dr., 364" Nailhead)
1959 GMC in Chevy Sheetmetal 1/2 Ton (235" Inline 6)