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  • From: David R.Matusiak <dave AT matusiak.org>
  • To: internetworkers AT lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: [internetworkers] Fwd: RTP business whines for cheap (and pretty) labor
  • Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 15:57:38 -0500

Too awesome not to share! Gotta love how Mr. Crisp describes the "dregs of the programming world." Apparently, Raleigh is waaaaaay too counter-culture for this one...

Begin forwarded message:

Date: Thu Jan 22, 2004 1:14:01 PM America/New_York
Subject: RTP business whines for cheap (and pretty) labor

Bosses are feeling oppressed. It's not only that labor isn't cheap
enough (though Crisp whines plenty about that), it's also that

Steve Crisp Wed, 21 Jan 2004 16:21:41 -0500
Any ad I have placed has resulted in the dregs of the programming
world beating a path to my door. The ones looking for jobs are grossly
underqualified, undertrained, and mostly unemployable because they
look and act like freaks. I really don't care how good someone may be
if they are covered in tattoos, have spiked hair, and could not make
it though a metal detector at an airport because of all their
highly-visible piecings.

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: this epitomizes the "tech labor shortage"
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 22:49:10 -0800
From: Norm Matloff <matloff AT laura.cs.ucdavis.edu>

I am posting the enclosed message with the permission of its author.

For those of you readers who are not in the tech world, I could write
a long response, disagreeing with his comments on the "need" to hire
someone with certain very specific skill sets, but will just comment
on his point on C++ and Java. C++ and Java basically are 90% the same,
and the differences between them are such that a competent Java
programmer can become proficient in the special features of C++ quite
rapidly.

As I said, I could go into much more detail on this, even quoting Bill
Gates to show he feels the same way about it as I do. Hiring a
programmer of good programming talent is far more important than
his/her knowing what a C++ "friend class" is (yes, that the name of a
certain C++ feature).

But as I said, I won't elaborate on that, because Mr. Crisp finally
gets to the salient issue midway in his mail:

4. We program primarily for Macintosh equipment. With Apple
dramatically ramping up their facilities it is almost impossible to
find an Apple- experienced programmer who will work for anything
less than $100,000 per year plus benefits -- a salary we can in no
way afford to pay.

On the other hand, there are many, many foreign nationals living
abroad who not only are more than capable of performing the tasks
we need them to, but will work for reasonable salaries of $40,000
to $60,000 per year.

That is literally the bottom line. The so-called "labor shortage" is
not a shortage of labor; it's a "shortage" of CHEAP labor.

By the way, in reading this employer's tirade about NCSU teaching Java
instead of C++, the reason some universities (though not mine)
switched to Java from C++ is that in 1998 the industry lobbyists
pushing Congress for a higher H-1B visa cap kept saying that there was
a shortage of Java programmers. It's all phony, folks.

Norm

----- Forwarded message from Steve Crisp <crisp AT pageplanetsoftware.com>
From: Steve Crisp <crisp AT pageplanetsoftware.com>
To: <nsmatloff AT ucdavis.edu>
Subject: Exceptinos to your Washington Post comments
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 16:21:41 -0500

I have to take exception to the comments attributed to you in the
Washington Post today.

I own a software development company. We are finding it impossible to
hire qualified American programmers for several reasons.

1. Many of the programmers currently out of work in this region do not
want to work. They accepted massive severance pay from their
respective companies and are (have been) sitting doing nothing for
almost two years now while living off their unemployment and
severance. Many of them took the opportunity to start their own
businesses and have no desire to work for someone else.

2. Of the programmers who are available to accept a position, they are
generally far less qualified. They received no severance because they
were not good enough to code in the first place when local
corporations started to lay people off.

3. For the past seven years, current and recent graduates of the UNC
system have been pumped full of Java rather than C++, the language we
program in. Java is complete trash and that is what NCSU is promoting
in the wake of their backroom deal with Sun several years ago. I don't
care how capable someone is, if they don't have extensive experience
in C++, we can't use them.

4. We program primarily for Macintosh equipment. With Apple
dramatically ramping up their facilities it is almost impossible to
find an Apple-experienced programmer who will work for anything less
than $100,000 per year plus benefits -- a salary we can in no way
afford to pay.

On the other hand, there are many, many foreign nationals living
abroad who not only are more than capable of performing the tasks we
need them to, but will work for reasonable salaries of $40,000 to
$60,000 per year. It appears that most of the rest of the world is
still using C++ having not switched over to worthless Java and there
are far more Apple-oriented programmers available.

Yet I can not bring these folks over to work since the INS has no
concept of the differences between programming languages. They presume
that since there are so many unemployed programmers available that I
should be able to find someone in the US to perform the task. And the
Employment Security Commission is even worse. I can't even count the
number of times I have placed a job search with the ESC for a C++
programmer and they have sent me someone with extensive Cobol
experience. They think that just because someone knows how to program
that that is enough to fulfill the job requirements. The ESC is a
complete waste of my time.

Any ad I have placed has resulted in the dregs of the programming
world beating a path to my door. The ones looking for jobs are grossly
underqualified, undertrained, and mostly unemployable because they
look and act like freaks. I really don't care how good someone may be
if they are covered in tattoos, have spiked hair, and could not make
it though a metal detector at an airport because of all their
highly-visible piecings. For someone to do that to themselves
indicates a complete lack of self worth or common sense and is not
someone I want to be associated with.

I should have the opportunity to hire anyone I wish from the
world-wide pool of potential applicants and hire them at what they are
willing to work for. Why should I be forced into an artificial hiring
matrix?

--
Steve Crisp
PagePlanet Software, Inc.
3300 Octavia Street
Raleigh, NC 27606
http://www.pageplanetsoftware.com
919-233-1770

----- End forwarded message -----





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