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  • From: "Chris Owens" <internetworkers_box AT reality-v2-dev.com>
  • To: "'InterNetWorkers'" <internetworkers AT franklin.oit.unc.edu>
  • Subject: Re: Database inquiry
  • Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 16:58:00 -0400


ARRRGH!!!

Ok, I tried to be civil. Sheesh! What a load.

I was with you initially, up until you reached the point of usual
bigotry that prevents zealots from being objective.

Mary Beth, my recommendation to you is:

A) Gather your requirements. There were some good questions and
starting points listed.

B) Find out what platform your current hosting company is using.

C) Determine what you're going to have to use after a good analysis of
your needs, and the available products.

Don't be swayed by "Boogey Man" threats, and misinformation based upon
pseudo-religious pontification. You've got other things to take into
consideration, things like budget, learning curve, support and
maintenance costs, resource allocation and all the other factors that go
into a total ROI.

Dependent on your needs, Access may be fine for you. I'm not a big fan
of it myself, but it may suit your needs. More than likely, if your
hosting provider supports ASP, they probably have a shared SQL Server
instance for customer usage.

If speed isn't an issue, by all means go with Apache... You'll find
that the other complaints relating to IIS and its security are
proportional since it has such a significantly higher install base...

More than likely, if you're considering cost and wanting an easily
maintainable site, you'll go with ASP under IIS unless your hosting
provider doesn't offer that and you're stuck with them.





Chris Owens
chris.owens AT reality-v2.com
919.345.4339 mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: David R. Matusiak [mailto:matusiak AT hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 4:23 PM
To: InterNetWorkers
Subject: [internetworkers] Re: Database inquiry

Mary Beth...
...what a big question you have...


before we worry about operating systems and "middleware" and whatnot, we
must first establish what exactly is the intended purpose and scope of
this
project. already we have established the idea that you want
dynamically-created web pages that pull info from a database. that is a
good
start. and you were wise to post your question to this list. lots of
good,
free advice i'm seeing...
but that also leaves us with a host of questions:

1. will this be a public site? or just an intranet? (i.e. who will have
access?)
2. who will be responsible for the maintenance of the site and database?
one
person? several?
3. how much data-crunching flexibility will you need above and beyond
the
basic database functions (like add/delete/modify records)? a lot? none
at
all?
4. are you worried at all about info security? (i.e. is this
highly-sensitive data?)

and these are just a few of the many questions someone might throw at
you,
so be prepared.

from there, i would attest that there is little difference these days
(my
opinion, people) as to what platform you have sitting in front of you.
personal preference determines more in this arena than anything else, it
seems to me. there is enough interactivity between protocols these days
(unless you are doing some mega-weird stuff) that you can easily talk
between disparate machine types.

you can manage your data on a remote unix server (are you sure it isn't
linux? ;) as aptly with a mac laptop as you could with a huge 1.8Ghz PC
whiz-bang machine. most likely, you will just be connecting over a
protocol
such as FTP, telnet (please, for the love of job, don't use telnet), or
*SSH* (please, yada yada, please teach everyone in the world to
use/love/adore ssh). [ssh stands for "secure shell" and provides a
fairly
decent layer of protection for data transmissions.]

these protocols are available for every major platform type and
interaction
amongst them should be seamless. have i blathered enough? i think not.

on to your /actual/ question:

what are we defining as "middleware" here? i'm assuming that means some
way
of rendering the database info onto the screen. in this realm, there is
a
lot to choose from.

<big open source plug>
if having a COMPLETELY FREE solution that is ABSOLUTELY FIRST RATE
sounds
interesting to you, then i highly recommend finding someone with
unix/linux
experience and directing them at the sacred triumvirate --
PHP/MYSQL/APACHE.
yes, indeed -- you may need to lay out some expensive training for this
person, or remain patient as they laze about the office reading a thick
O'Reilly book for a while, but the end result will be the equivalent of
Internet Nirvana. just kick back, watch the cows graze, and enjoy mad
uptime
on your site. (of course, i recommend keeping up with security patches
;)

apache = the world's most deployed and best developed web SERVER.
mySQL = DATABASE that has been around a long time and had most of the
kinks
worked out
PHP = gods gift to dumbasses like me - allows you to create some kickin'
websites with little knowledge of (advanced) programming. i guess this
would
be the MIDDLEWARE.

for much more advanced database features, please look towards
PostGRESQL.
those folks are "nuts about databases."
</big open source plug>

okay, enough of my incohesive ranting...

there are also products from other vendors. another excellent middleware
solution is Cold Fusion. i don't know much about this product, but i do
know
that it can enable folks who don't "know everything already" about web
site
building to put up some rather impressive stuff in a short timeframe.
not
such a big learning curve, but by the time you've passed this learning
curve, you'll (perhaps) be longing for the advanced features of another
product.

in terms of microsoft products, (you'll note i am listing them dead
last)
you should have a lot to choose from. hear me now and believe me later
and
maybe talk about it some other time, Access IS NOT a database. yes, i
know
what the M$ website says, and yes, i know what their product literature
says. i'm not an idiot. but i do know to listen to folks who know a lot
more
than i do and for over 5 years, the across-the-board response on Access
is
that it is a veritable P.O.S.

Access is more like an "advanced address book" for your windows PC. i
would
rather swallow a windows cd-rom than administer an Access "database." if
you
want a /real/ database product and you want it to have the M$ logo on
it,
then i recommend SQL. there is still the stigma of running a microsoft
product, but this is one of the better products that they manufacture.
many
serious sites are run off of a SQL/IIS platform.

ahhhh... IIS -- and this brings us to the *real* hinge of this
discussion.
IIS (or Internet Information Server) is the bane of all web existence --
yeah, even worse than netscape. it has so many security issues that i
couldn't even begin to explain. the problem with ASP and running any of
the
M$ products is that doing so makes you completely reliant on IIS --
"IIS,
you *are* the weakest link."

i've seen IIS lockups more times than i'd like to remember. i've seen
more
IIS security exploits than i thought were possible with one singular
product. Code Red and all of its crap were the direct fault of IIS
servers
around the world. legend has spoken that even being in the same room as
an
IIS server when it is booting will bring a dark curse upon your
domicile.

okay, let me wrap it up -- 'tis almost quitting time...

first, you need a detailed rundown of the whos / whats / whys of your
database needs. (looks like Mike Thomas' email nailed that one good).

next, you need to decide where to spend your $$$ -- training and
(hopefully)
holding onto a decent employee -or- buying a lot of software licenses.

then, you can determine which solution works best for your budget,
needs,
capabilities, etc.

lastly, you can worry about what OS your provider uses and what your
desktop
is. ;)

hope this was helpful and not too sanctimonious.
dave m.
p.s. sounds like you've got a new employee on the way, but if you are in
need of any more, please email this list or me directly. i certainly
know a
lot of top-notch folks who could use the work.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Marybeth Lackey" <mlackey AT raleighcvb.org>
To: "InterNetWorkers" <internetworkers AT franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 3:20 PM
Subject: [internetworkers] Database inquiry


> My office would like to have a database-driven site. We're in the
> preliminary planning stages and need a few questions answered, if
anyone
has
> the expertise and the time to explain it to me so I can explain it to
> them!!!
>
> 1. What exactly do we need? We have a database set up right now that
is
part
> of a proprietary program for Convention and Visitors Bureaus, but
could be
> mapped into Access. The Internet person (me right now; someone new in
a
> month and a half) has a Mac. Our site is hosted by a hosting company
and I
> BELIEVE their servers are Unix, although that would have to be
confirmed.
>
> I know we need some sort of middleware, but is it better to stick with
MS
> and use the Access database along with some ASP, or should we start
from
> ground zero? Should my job as the sole Internet person have a Mac or
a
PC,
> or will that matter? I'm pretty sure the middleware goes on the
server,
so
> would a hosting company provide that, or would we have to move our
server
> in-house? And if they have Unix servers, does that eliminate using
the
> whole Access/ASP option if they continue to host our site?
>
> I think that should get us started on our discussion. Thanks in
advance
for
> any help you can offer.
> ---
> Mary Beth Lackey
> Internet Manager
> Greater Raleigh Convention and Visitors Bureau
> http://www.raleighcvb.org

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