Internetworkers: http://www.ibiblio.org/internetworkers/

["Joe Komenda" <joe AT komejo.com>]

Actually, I'm up to 6 computers on my desktop. :-)  (1 iMac, 3 PC, 2 Linux)

- For QA, you would probably want a PC in addition to your Mac.

- The truth about IIS vs. Apache: According to Netcraft
http://netcraft.com/survey/ , Apache is the most widely used server (at a 
ratio of
2to1 over IIS). That is, despite having a significantly lower install base, 
IIS
gets hacked much more often.

The point above is moot if you have decent hosting company; they should have a
firewall and do updates regularly, just like with any other platform. You can
disregard this quibbling entirely for your purposes.

Chris's blurb about speed is also irrelevant to your needs. The processor and
memory of your hosting company server, bandwidth, and how many virtual servers
they're running on your machine will have the biggest impact on speed.

You also can find free applications much easier for unix/php/mysql (and 
perl), and
even free training info: http://komejo.net/

Joe K

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Owens" <internetworkers_box AT reality-v2-dev.com>
To: "InterNetWorkers" <internetworkers AT franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 1:58 PM
Subject: [internetworkers] Re: Database inquiry


> ARRRGH!!!
>
> Ok, I tried to be civil.  Sheesh!  What a load.
>
> I was with you initially, up until you reached the point of usual
> bigotry that prevents zealots from being objective.
>
> Mary Beth, my recommendation to you is:
>
> A) Gather your requirements.  There were some good questions and
> starting points listed.
>
> B) Find out what platform your current hosting company is using.
>
> C) Determine what you're going to have to use after a good analysis of
> your needs, and the available products.
>
> Don't be swayed by "Boogey Man" threats, and misinformation based upon
> pseudo-religious pontification. You've got other things to take into
> consideration, things like budget, learning curve, support and
> maintenance costs, resource allocation and all the other factors that go
> into a total ROI.
>
> Dependent on your needs, Access may be fine for you.  I'm not a big fan
> of it myself, but it may suit your needs.  More than likely, if your
> hosting provider supports ASP, they probably have a shared SQL Server
> instance for customer usage.
>
> If speed isn't an issue, by all means go with Apache...  You'll find
> that the other complaints relating to IIS and its security are
> proportional since it has such a significantly higher install base...
>
> More than likely, if you're considering cost and wanting an easily
> maintainable site, you'll go with ASP under IIS unless your hosting
> provider doesn't offer that and you're stuck with them.
>
>
>
>
>
> Chris Owens
> chris.owens AT reality-v2.com
> 919.345.4339 mobile
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David R. Matusiak [mailto:matusiak AT hotmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 4:23 PM
> To: InterNetWorkers
> Subject: [internetworkers] Re: Database inquiry
>
> Mary Beth...
>     ...what a big question you have...
>
>
> before we worry about operating systems and "middleware" and whatnot, we
> must first establish what exactly is the intended purpose and scope of
> this
> project. already we have established the idea that you want
> dynamically-created web pages that pull info from a database. that is a
> good
> start.  and you were wise to post your question to this list. lots of
> good,
> free advice i'm seeing...
> but that also leaves us with a host of questions:
>
> 1. will this be a public site? or just an intranet? (i.e. who will have
> access?)
> 2. who will be responsible for the maintenance of the site and database?
> one
> person? several?
> 3. how much data-crunching flexibility will you need above and beyond
> the
> basic database functions (like add/delete/modify records)?  a lot?  none
> at
> all?
> 4. are you worried at all about info security? (i.e. is this
> highly-sensitive data?)
>
> and these are just a few of the many questions someone might throw at
> you,
> so be prepared.
>
> from there, i would attest that there is little difference these days
> (my
> opinion, people) as to what platform you have sitting in front of you.
> personal preference determines more in this arena than anything else, it
> seems to me. there is enough interactivity between protocols these days
> (unless you are doing some mega-weird stuff) that you can easily talk
> between disparate machine types.
>
> you can manage your data on a remote unix server (are you sure it isn't
> linux? ;) as aptly with a mac laptop as you could with a huge 1.8Ghz PC
> whiz-bang machine. most likely, you will just be connecting over a
> protocol
> such as FTP, telnet (please, for the love of job, don't use telnet), or
> *SSH* (please, yada yada, please teach everyone in the world to
> use/love/adore ssh). [ssh stands for "secure shell" and provides a
> fairly
> decent layer of protection for data transmissions.]

>
> these protocols are available for every major platform type and
> interaction
> amongst them should be seamless. have i blathered enough? i think not.
>
> on to your /actual/ question:
>
> what are we defining as "middleware" here? i'm assuming that means some
> way
> of rendering the database info onto the screen. in this realm, there is
> a
> lot to choose from.
>
> <big open source plug>
> if having a COMPLETELY FREE solution that is ABSOLUTELY FIRST RATE
> sounds
> interesting to you, then i highly recommend finding someone with
> unix/linux
> experience and directing them at the sacred triumvirate --
> PHP/MYSQL/APACHE.
> yes, indeed -- you may need to lay out some expensive training for this
> person, or remain patient as they laze about the office reading a thick
> O'Reilly book for a while, but the end result will be the equivalent of
> Internet Nirvana. just kick back, watch the cows graze, and enjoy mad
> uptime
> on your site. (of course, i recommend keeping up with security patches
> ;)
>
> apache = the world's most deployed and best developed web SERVER.
> mySQL = DATABASE that has been around a long time and had most of the
> kinks
> worked out
> PHP = gods gift to dumbasses like me - allows you to create some kickin'
> websites with little knowledge of (advanced) programming. i guess this
> would
> be the MIDDLEWARE.
>
> for much more advanced database features, please look towards
> PostGRESQL.
> those folks are "nuts about databases."
> </big open source plug>
>
> okay, enough of my incohesive ranting...
>
> there are also products from other vendors. another excellent middleware
> solution is Cold Fusion. i don't know much about this product, but i do
> know
> that it can enable folks who don't "know everything already" about web
> site
> building to put up some rather impressive stuff in a short timeframe.
> not
> such a big learning curve, but by the time you've passed this learning
> curve, you'll (perhaps) be longing for the advanced features of another
> product.
>
> in terms of microsoft products, (you'll note i am listing them dead
> last)
> you should have a lot to choose from. hear me now and believe me later
> and
> maybe talk about it some other time, Access IS NOT a database. yes, i
> know
> what the M$ website says, and yes, i know what their product literature
> says. i'm not an idiot. but i do know to listen to folks who know a lot
> more
> than i do and for over 5 years, the across-the-board response on Access
> is
> that it is a veritable P.O.S.
>
> Access is more like an "advanced address book" for your windows PC. i
> would
> rather swallow a windows cd-rom than administer an Access "database." if
> you
> want a /real/ database product and you want it to have the M$ logo on
> it,
> then i recommend SQL. there is still the stigma of running a microsoft
> product, but this is one of the better products that they manufacture.
> many
> serious sites are run off of a SQL/IIS platform.
>
> ahhhh... IIS -- and this brings us to the *real* hinge of this
> discussion.
> IIS (or Internet Information Server) is the bane of all web existence --
> yeah, even worse than netscape. it has so many security issues that i
> couldn't even begin to explain. the problem with ASP and running any of
> the
> M$ products is that doing so makes you completely reliant on IIS --
> "IIS,
> you *are* the weakest link."
>
> i've seen IIS lockups more times than i'd like to remember. i've seen
> more
> IIS security exploits than i thought were possible with one singular
> product. Code Red and all of its crap were the direct fault of IIS
> servers
> around the world. legend has spoken that even being in the same room as
> an
> IIS server when it is booting will bring a dark curse upon your
> domicile.
>
> okay, let me wrap it up -- 'tis almost quitting time...
>
> first, you need a detailed rundown of the whos / whats / whys of your
> database needs. (looks like Mike Thomas' email nailed that one good).
>
> next, you need to decide where to spend your $$$ -- training and
> (hopefully)
> holding onto a decent employee -or- buying a lot of software licenses.
>
> then, you can determine which solution works best for your budget,
> needs,
> capabilities, etc.
>
> lastly, you can worry about what OS your provider uses and what your
> desktop
> is.  ;)
>
> hope this was helpful and not too sanctimonious.
> dave m.
> p.s. sounds like you've got a new employee on the way, but if you are in
> need of any more, please email this list or me directly. i certainly
> know a
> lot of top-notch folks who could use the work.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Marybeth Lackey" <mlackey AT raleighcvb.org>
> To: "InterNetWorkers" <internetworkers AT franklin.oit.unc.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 3:20 PM
> Subject: [internetworkers] Database inquiry
>
>
> > My office would like to have a database-driven site. We're in the
> > preliminary planning stages and need a few questions answered, if
> anyone
> has
> > the expertise and the time to explain it to me so I can explain it to
> > them!!!
> >
> > 1. What exactly do we need? We have a database set up right now that
> is
> part
> > of a proprietary program for Convention and Visitors Bureaus, but
> could be
> > mapped into Access.  The Internet person (me right now; someone new in
> a
> > month and a half) has a Mac. Our site is hosted by a hosting company
> and I
> > BELIEVE their servers are Unix, although that would have to be
> confirmed.
> >
> > I know we need some sort of middleware, but is it better to stick with
> MS
> > and use the Access database along with some ASP, or should we start
> from
> > ground zero?  Should my job as the sole Internet person have a Mac or
> a
> PC,
> > or will that matter?  I'm pretty sure the middleware goes on the
> server,
> so
> > would a hosting company provide that, or would we have to move our
> server
> > in-house?  And if they have Unix servers, does that eliminate using
> the
> > whole Access/ASP option if they continue to host our site?
> >
> > I think that should get us started on our discussion. Thanks in
> advance
> for
> > any help you can offer.
> > ---
> > Mary Beth Lackey
> > Internet Manager
> > Greater Raleigh Convention and Visitors Bureau
> > http://www.raleighcvb.org
>
> ---
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