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  • From: Michael Hayes <mhayes AT mphiles.net>
  • To: internetworkers AT franklin.oit.unc.edu
  • Subject: Re: Database inquiry
  • Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 16:49:27 -0500 (EST)


"Don't be swayed by "Boogey Man" threats, and misinformation based upon
pseudo-religious pontification"

I couldn't agree more on this point.

The web is the one place where you still have a real choice in operating
systems/server software, etc... So you really need to do some research. I
also agree with the point that it depends on what you need, and it sounds
like what you need most is a geek, which ever decision you go with.

Michael Hayes
www.mphiles.com
mike AT mphiles.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Owens" <internetworkers_box AT reality-v2-dev.com>
To: "InterNetWorkers" <internetworkers AT franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 4:58 PM
Subject: [internetworkers] Re: Database inquiry


> ARRRGH!!!
>
> Ok, I tried to be civil. Sheesh! What a load.
>
> I was with you initially, up until you reached the point of usual
> bigotry that prevents zealots from being objective.
>
> Mary Beth, my recommendation to you is:
>
> A) Gather your requirements. There were some good questions and
> starting points listed.
>
> B) Find out what platform your current hosting company is using.
>
> C) Determine what you're going to have to use after a good analysis of
> your needs, and the available products.
>
> Don't be swayed by "Boogey Man" threats, and misinformation based upon
> pseudo-religious pontification. You've got other things to take into
> consideration, things like budget, learning curve, support and
> maintenance costs, resource allocation and all the other factors that go
> into a total ROI.
>
> Dependent on your needs, Access may be fine for you. I'm not a big fan
> of it myself, but it may suit your needs. More than likely, if your
> hosting provider supports ASP, they probably have a shared SQL Server
> instance for customer usage.
>
> If speed isn't an issue, by all means go with Apache... You'll find
> that the other complaints relating to IIS and its security are
> proportional since it has such a significantly higher install base...
>
> More than likely, if you're considering cost and wanting an easily
> maintainable site, you'll go with ASP under IIS unless your hosting
> provider doesn't offer that and you're stuck with them.
>
>
>
>
>
> Chris Owens
> chris.owens AT reality-v2.com
> 919.345.4339 mobile
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David R. Matusiak [mailto:matusiak AT hotmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 4:23 PM
> To: InterNetWorkers
> Subject: [internetworkers] Re: Database inquiry
>
> Mary Beth...
> ...what a big question you have...
>
>
> before we worry about operating systems and "middleware" and whatnot, we
> must first establish what exactly is the intended purpose and scope of
> this
> project. already we have established the idea that you want
> dynamically-created web pages that pull info from a database. that is a
> good
> start. and you were wise to post your question to this list. lots of
> good,
> free advice i'm seeing...
> but that also leaves us with a host of questions:
>
> 1. will this be a public site? or just an intranet? (i.e. who will have
> access?)
> 2. who will be responsible for the maintenance of the site and database?
> one
> person? several?
> 3. how much data-crunching flexibility will you need above and beyond
> the
> basic database functions (like add/delete/modify records)? a lot? none
> at
> all?
> 4. are you worried at all about info security? (i.e. is this
> highly-sensitive data?)
>
> and these are just a few of the many questions someone might throw at
> you,
> so be prepared.
>
> from there, i would attest that there is little difference these days
> (my
> opinion, people) as to what platform you have sitting in front of you.
> personal preference determines more in this arena than anything else, it
> seems to me. there is enough interactivity between protocols these days
> (unless you are doing some mega-weird stuff) that you can easily talk
> between disparate machine types.
>
> you can manage your data on a remote unix server (are you sure it isn't
> linux? ;) as aptly with a mac laptop as you could with a huge 1.8Ghz PC
> whiz-bang machine. most likely, you will just be connecting over a
> protocol
> such as FTP, telnet (please, for the love of job, don't use telnet), or
> *SSH* (please, yada yada, please teach everyone in the world to
> use/love/adore ssh). [ssh stands for "secure shell" and provides a
> fairly
> decent layer of protection for data transmissions.]
>
> these protocols are available for every major platform type and
> interaction
> amongst them should be seamless. have i blathered enough? i think not.
>
> on to your /actual/ question:
>
> what are we defining as "middleware" here? i'm assuming that means some
> way
> of rendering the database info onto the screen. in this realm, there is
> a
> lot to choose from.
>
> <big open source plug>
> if having a COMPLETELY FREE solution that is ABSOLUTELY FIRST RATE
> sounds
> interesting to you, then i highly recommend finding someone with
> unix/linux
> experience and directing them at the sacred triumvirate --
> PHP/MYSQL/APACHE.
> yes, indeed -- you may need to lay out some expensive training for this
> person, or remain patient as they laze about the office reading a thick
> O'Reilly book for a while, but the end result will be the equivalent of
> Internet Nirvana. just kick back, watch the cows graze, and enjoy mad
> uptime
> on your site. (of course, i recommend keeping up with security patches
> ;)
>
> apache = the world's most deployed and best developed web SERVER.
> mySQL = DATABASE that has been around a long time and had most of the
> kinks
> worked out
> PHP = gods gift to dumbasses like me - allows you to create some kickin'
> websites with little knowledge of (advanced) programming. i guess this
> would
> be the MIDDLEWARE.
>
> for much more advanced database features, please look towards
> PostGRESQL.
> those folks are "nuts about databases."
> </big open source plug>
>
> okay, enough of my incohesive ranting...
>
> there are also products from other vendors. another excellent middleware
> solution is Cold Fusion. i don't know much about this product, but i do
> know
> that it can enable folks who don't "know everything already" about web
> site
> building to put up some rather impressive stuff in a short timeframe.
> not
> such a big learning curve, but by the time you've passed this learning
> curve, you'll (perhaps) be longing for the advanced features of another
> product.
>
> in terms of microsoft products, (you'll note i am listing them dead
> last)
> you should have a lot to choose from. hear me now and believe me later
> and
> maybe talk about it some other time, Access IS NOT a database. yes, i
> know
> what the M$ website says, and yes, i know what their product literature
> says. i'm not an idiot. but i do know to listen to folks who know a lot
> more
> than i do and for over 5 years, the across-the-board response on Access
> is
> that it is a veritable P.O.S.
>
> Access is more like an "advanced address book" for your windows PC. i
> would
> rather swallow a windows cd-rom than administer an Access "database." if
> you
> want a /real/ database product and you want it to have the M$ logo on
> it,
> then i recommend SQL. there is still the stigma of running a microsoft
> product, but this is one of the better products that they manufacture.
> many
> serious sites are run off of a SQL/IIS platform.
>
> ahhhh... IIS -- and this brings us to the *real* hinge of this
> discussion.
> IIS (or Internet Information Server) is the bane of all web existence --
> yeah, even worse than netscape. it has so many security issues that i
> couldn't even begin to explain. the problem with ASP and running any of
> the
> M$ products is that doing so makes you completely reliant on IIS --
> "IIS,
> you *are* the weakest link."
>
> i've seen IIS lockups more times than i'd like to remember. i've seen
> more
> IIS security exploits than i thought were possible with one singular
> product. Code Red and all of its crap were the direct fault of IIS
> servers
> around the world. legend has spoken that even being in the same room as
> an
> IIS server when it is booting will bring a dark curse upon your
> domicile.
>
> okay, let me wrap it up -- 'tis almost quitting time...
>
> first, you need a detailed rundown of the whos / whats / whys of your
> database needs. (looks like Mike Thomas' email nailed that one good).
>
> next, you need to decide where to spend your $$$ -- training and
> (hopefully)
> holding onto a decent employee -or- buying a lot of software licenses.
>
> then, you can determine which solution works best for your budget,
> needs,
> capabilities, etc.
>
> lastly, you can worry about what OS your provider uses and what your
> desktop
> is. ;)
>
> hope this was helpful and not too sanctimonious.
> dave m.
> p.s. sounds like you've got a new employee on the way, but if you are in
> need of any more, please email this list or me directly. i certainly
> know a
> lot of top-notch folks who could use the work.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Marybeth Lackey" <mlackey AT raleighcvb.org>
> To: "InterNetWorkers" <internetworkers AT franklin.oit.unc.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 3:20 PM
> Subject: [internetworkers] Database inquiry
>
>
> > My office would like to have a database-driven site. We're in the
> > preliminary planning stages and need a few questions answered, if
> anyone
> has
> > the expertise and the time to explain it to me so I can explain it to
> > them!!!
> >
> > 1. What exactly do we need? We have a database set up right now that
> is
> part
> > of a proprietary program for Convention and Visitors Bureaus, but
> could be
> > mapped into Access. The Internet person (me right now; someone new in
> a
> > month and a half) has a Mac. Our site is hosted by a hosting company
> and I
> > BELIEVE their servers are Unix, although that would have to be
> confirmed.
> >
> > I know we need some sort of middleware, but is it better to stick with
> MS
> > and use the Access database along with some ASP, or should we start
> from
> > ground zero? Should my job as the sole Internet person have a Mac or
> a
> PC,
> > or will that matter? I'm pretty sure the middleware goes on the
> server,
> so
> > would a hosting company provide that, or would we have to move our
> server
> > in-house? And if they have Unix servers, does that eliminate using
> the
> > whole Access/ASP option if they continue to host our site?
> >
> > I think that should get us started on our discussion. Thanks in
> advance
> for
> > any help you can offer.
> > ---
> > Mary Beth Lackey
> > Internet Manager
> > Greater Raleigh Convention and Visitors Bureau
> > http://www.raleighcvb.org
>
> ---
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