Development of Creative Commons licenses

[drew Roberts <zotz AT 100jamz.com>]

On Wednesday 08 March 2006 03:05 pm, Mia Garlick wrote:
> so in this scenario, if a group of individuals (eligible NC-users
> under the guidelines) wanted to demo CC music & there was no money
> changing hands or ads used in ways discussed in the guidelines, then
> it would permissible for them to direct a store to make its equipment
> available for this purpose. use of a for-profit shops facilities to
> do this would also be permitted because the shop would be making the
> use at the direction of an allowable NC user.
>
> if one of the individuals owned the shop or had some financial
> interest in the service provider/shop/company that was hosting the
> demo then that would start to run afoul of the guidelines and be a
> commercial use on the reasoning that the individual is engineering
> this as an agent for the for-profit enterprise to engender goodwill
> (and thus ultimately money) for the store/company.

See, this is where I have major problems with NC. You say start to run afoul. 
In the most polite tone of voice... Please, which is it. Does it run afoul, 
or does it not run afoul?

If it runs afoul, the ISP exception is pretty much useless for any big 
publicly traded ISP.

So, I could have a competing furniture store do the hosting. And a friend of 
mine could have my family's store do the hosting. But we better not collude.

It is just too complex. How is this ever gonna get easy to understand?
>
> of course the other solution to this problem as terry indicated would
> be for the group/shop/company to only use CC licensed music without
> an NC limitation.

That is my solution for all uses. I am not gonna touch NC works. Here is the 
problem. Do all of you NC releasing people realise that many would want to 
promote your works but find it too dangerous to do so? Just so that is clear.

all the best,

drew
>
> On Mar 6, 2006, at 3:28 PM, drew Roberts wrote:
> > On Monday 06 March 2006 05:53 pm, Mia Garlick wrote:
> >> but isn't the issue whether the person who makes money to live using
> >> the NC licensed work does so in a way that enables the person to make
> >> money from the NC-licensed work? this is focusing on the act. if an
> >> individual is making money from the actual use of the NC-licensed
> >> work, then whether their use is NC or not, depends on the guidelines.
> >>
> >> in the case where it is a for-profit company that is incorporated by
> >> a sole shareholder for tax reasons, i guess the relevant question is:
> >> is it the company acting through the sole shareholder that is using
> >> the NC licensed work? or is the sole shareholder using that work as
> >> an individual?
> >
> > I never said I incorporated for tax reasons. That really is not the
> > case. I am
> > not in the USA and where I am from, we don't have an income tax. I
> > incorporated for other reasons. I am not sure I even remember them
> > all now.
> >
> >> drew - what kinds of uses of NC-licensed works does your company
> >> make? do you as an individual ever make use of an NC-licensed work?
> >> is it possible to distinguish between the two?
> >
> > I don't make any uses of NC licenced works personally, or through my
> > corporation. I still consider them too dangerous to use. I will set
> > up a
> > scenario for you as if I didn't though.
> >
> > My grandfather, who died a few years ago owned a furniture store.
> > They have a
> > department that sells audio and musical equiptment. I have in the past
> > considered asking them to let our local LUG have a demo system
> > showing what
> > can be done in the area of audio recording with Free Software under
> > linux and
> > having CDs of some audio capable distribution available for free to
> > their
> > customers. (Provided by the LUG, as well as the ability for the
> > customers to
> > use the demo system to burn the distro onto their own blanks in
> > case the LUG
> > provided disks run short.
> >
> > I am a big fan of Free Software. I am involved in CC directly as a
> > result of
> > my involvement with Free Software. I release my works BY-SA as a
> > result of my
> > involvement with Free Software. So, when I get thinking along these
> > lines, I
> > often think that it would be a good idea for the LUG to promote CC
> > stuff as
> > well. So, The LUG would provide a machine which the store would
> > host and
> > power. The stores "customers" would be able to come in and use the
> > machine to
> > see how they could use Free Software in making music. They could
> > also got CC
> > content to play with at the same time. Sounds like a win-win all
> > around. (I
> > may still do it for BY and BY-SA stuff.) Then I start following all
> > the
> > different ideas people have re the NC issue. Then one day I
> > remember that
> > since my grandfather died that I have a very minor interest in the
> > store.
> > (Would that make a difference?) OK, so, if I had no shares in the
> > store,
> > would it be OK for them to make CC NC works available to people at
> > no charge?
> > I don't know. I do have shares, if it was OK, is it now not? If
> > not, I can
> > perhaps get another furniture store or music store to be the host.
> > OK, what
> > of a LUG trying to get a publicly traded corporation to agree to
> > the same
> > deal? Would ti fail if any member of hte LUG held shares in the
> > company or
> > any related company? It is just too much for my brain. If I ever
> > see it
> > explained clearly, I may reconsider.
> >
> > In the mean time, I will give my efforts to finding and promoting
> > people who
> > release BY and BY-SA works and to creating works that I will
> > release BY-SA or
> > under some other ocpyleft licence.
> >
> > all the best,
> >
> > drew
> >
> >> On Mar 6, 2006, at 2:42 PM, drew Roberts wrote:
> >>> On Monday 06 March 2006 05:34 pm, Mia Garlick wrote:
> >>>> but for the purposes of determining whether a use is commercial or
> >>>> not, isn't whether the org is established for the purpose of making
> >>>> money or not, the only relevant question in answering that
> >>>> question?
> >>>
> >>> I don't see why. We know people have to make money to live. Do we
> >>> say that
> >>> anyone with an income is not qualified to use NC licenced works?
> >>> Anyone whose
> >>> income exceeds his expenses? Anyone not bankrupt?
> >>>
> >>> Why is it not properly the act only that counts?
> >>>
> >>> all the best,
> >>>
> >>> drew
> >>>
> >>>> On Mar 6, 2006, at 2:25 PM, drew Roberts wrote:
> >>>>> Well,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> a corporation can be established for other purposes though.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> all the best,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> drew
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Monday 06 March 2006 05:13 pm, Mia Garlick wrote:
> >>>>>> what do you mean the definition does not match with reality?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> an organization that is established for the purpose of making a
> >>>>>> profit has, as adam stated, the objective of making money & thus
> >>>>>> everything it does must be assumed ultimately to be connected
> >>>>>> with a
> >>>>>> money-making purpose. even if it offers something for free it is
> >>>>>> doing so to increase it's brand and to cultivate favorable
> >>>>>> PR...for
> >>>>>> the purpose of making money.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> what would be an alternate definition?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Mar 6, 2006, at 2:07 PM, drew Roberts wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Monday 06 March 2006 04:44 pm, Adam Fields wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 06, 2006 at 04:35:53PM -0500, drew Roberts wrote:
> >>>>>>>> [...]
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> so far there have been 2 comments on these.  if you think
> >>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>> definition is too vague & CC should do something to clarify
> >>>>>>>>>>> it -
> >>>>>>>>>>> let's discuss these guidelines!!!
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> OK, I never before understood that a for profit could never
> >>>>>>>>> properly use
> >>>>>>>>> an NC work. Since I read the pdf, I cannot tell you how many
> >>>>>>>>> people I
> >>>>>>>>> have come across who see things as I did. (oops, responding in
> >>>>>>>>> the wrong
> >>>>>>>>> post.)
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Curious. Why is that not evident? By definition, everything a
> >>>>>>>> for-profit corporation does is commercial.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Perhaps, but definition does not always match with reality.
> >>>>>>> Should
> >>>>>>> we always
> >>>>>>> go with definition?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> all the best,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> drew
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> http://www.ourmedia.org/node/145261
> >>>>>>> Record a song and you might win $1,000.00
> >>>>>>> http://www.ourmedia.org/user/17145
> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>>>>
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> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> http://www.ourmedia.org/node/145261
> >>>>> Record a song and you might win $1,000.00
> >>>>> http://www.ourmedia.org/user/17145
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>>
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> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> http://www.ourmedia.org/node/145261
> >>> Record a song and you might win $1,000.00
> >>> http://www.ourmedia.org/user/17145
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> >
> > --
> > http://www.ourmedia.org/node/145261
> > Record a song and you might win $1,000.00
> > http://www.ourmedia.org/user/17145
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>
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-- 
http://www.ourmedia.org/node/145261
Record a song and you might win $1,000.00
http://www.ourmedia.org/user/17145