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cc-licenses - Re: [cc-licenses] Alex Bosworth: "Creative Commons Is Broken"

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  • From: Mia Garlick <mia AT creativecommons.org>
  • To: Discussion on the Creative Commons license drafts <cc-licenses AT lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [cc-licenses] Alex Bosworth: "Creative Commons Is Broken"
  • Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 12:05:27 -0800

so in this scenario, if a group of individuals (eligible NC-users under the guidelines) wanted to demo CC music & there was no money changing hands or ads used in ways discussed in the guidelines, then it would permissible for them to direct a store to make its equipment available for this purpose. use of a for-profit shops facilities to do this would also be permitted because the shop would be making the use at the direction of an allowable NC user.

if one of the individuals owned the shop or had some financial interest in the service provider/shop/company that was hosting the demo then that would start to run afoul of the guidelines and be a commercial use on the reasoning that the individual is engineering this as an agent for the for-profit enterprise to engender goodwill (and thus ultimately money) for the store/company.

of course the other solution to this problem as terry indicated would be for the group/shop/company to only use CC licensed music without an NC limitation.

On Mar 6, 2006, at 3:28 PM, drew Roberts wrote:

On Monday 06 March 2006 05:53 pm, Mia Garlick wrote:
but isn't the issue whether the person who makes money to live using
the NC licensed work does so in a way that enables the person to make
money from the NC-licensed work? this is focusing on the act. if an
individual is making money from the actual use of the NC-licensed
work, then whether their use is NC or not, depends on the guidelines.

in the case where it is a for-profit company that is incorporated by
a sole shareholder for tax reasons, i guess the relevant question is:
is it the company acting through the sole shareholder that is using
the NC licensed work? or is the sole shareholder using that work as
an individual?

I never said I incorporated for tax reasons. That really is not the case. I am
not in the USA and where I am from, we don't have an income tax. I
incorporated for other reasons. I am not sure I even remember them all now.

drew - what kinds of uses of NC-licensed works does your company
make? do you as an individual ever make use of an NC-licensed work?
is it possible to distinguish between the two?

I don't make any uses of NC licenced works personally, or through my
corporation. I still consider them too dangerous to use. I will set up a
scenario for you as if I didn't though.

My grandfather, who died a few years ago owned a furniture store. They have a
department that sells audio and musical equiptment. I have in the past
considered asking them to let our local LUG have a demo system showing what
can be done in the area of audio recording with Free Software under linux and
having CDs of some audio capable distribution available for free to their
customers. (Provided by the LUG, as well as the ability for the customers to
use the demo system to burn the distro onto their own blanks in case the LUG
provided disks run short.

I am a big fan of Free Software. I am involved in CC directly as a result of
my involvement with Free Software. I release my works BY-SA as a result of my
involvement with Free Software. So, when I get thinking along these lines, I
often think that it would be a good idea for the LUG to promote CC stuff as
well. So, The LUG would provide a machine which the store would host and
power. The stores "customers" would be able to come in and use the machine to
see how they could use Free Software in making music. They could also got CC
content to play with at the same time. Sounds like a win-win all around. (I
may still do it for BY and BY-SA stuff.) Then I start following all the
different ideas people have re the NC issue. Then one day I remember that
since my grandfather died that I have a very minor interest in the store.
(Would that make a difference?) OK, so, if I had no shares in the store,
would it be OK for them to make CC NC works available to people at no charge?
I don't know. I do have shares, if it was OK, is it now not? If not, I can
perhaps get another furniture store or music store to be the host. OK, what
of a LUG trying to get a publicly traded corporation to agree to the same
deal? Would ti fail if any member of hte LUG held shares in the company or
any related company? It is just too much for my brain. If I ever see it
explained clearly, I may reconsider.

In the mean time, I will give my efforts to finding and promoting people who
release BY and BY-SA works and to creating works that I will release BY-SA or
under some other ocpyleft licence.

all the best,

drew

On Mar 6, 2006, at 2:42 PM, drew Roberts wrote:
On Monday 06 March 2006 05:34 pm, Mia Garlick wrote:
but for the purposes of determining whether a use is commercial or
not, isn't whether the org is established for the purpose of making
money or not, the only relevant question in answering that question?

I don't see why. We know people have to make money to live. Do we
say that
anyone with an income is not qualified to use NC licenced works?
Anyone whose
income exceeds his expenses? Anyone not bankrupt?

Why is it not properly the act only that counts?

all the best,

drew

On Mar 6, 2006, at 2:25 PM, drew Roberts wrote:
Well,

a corporation can be established for other purposes though.

all the best,

drew

On Monday 06 March 2006 05:13 pm, Mia Garlick wrote:
what do you mean the definition does not match with reality?

an organization that is established for the purpose of making a
profit has, as adam stated, the objective of making money & thus
everything it does must be assumed ultimately to be connected
with a
money-making purpose. even if it offers something for free it is
doing so to increase it's brand and to cultivate favorable PR...for
the purpose of making money.

what would be an alternate definition?

On Mar 6, 2006, at 2:07 PM, drew Roberts wrote:
On Monday 06 March 2006 04:44 pm, Adam Fields wrote:
On Mon, Mar 06, 2006 at 04:35:53PM -0500, drew Roberts wrote:
[...]

so far there have been 2 comments on these. if you think the
definition is too vague & CC should do something to clarify
it -
let's discuss these guidelines!!!

OK, I never before understood that a for profit could never
properly use
an NC work. Since I read the pdf, I cannot tell you how many
people I
have come across who see things as I did. (oops, responding in
the wrong
post.)

Curious. Why is that not evident? By definition, everything a
for-profit corporation does is commercial.

Perhaps, but definition does not always match with reality. Should
we always
go with definition?

all the best,

drew
--
http://www.ourmedia.org/node/145261
Record a song and you might win $1,000.00
http://www.ourmedia.org/user/17145
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--
http://www.ourmedia.org/node/145261
Record a song and you might win $1,000.00
http://www.ourmedia.org/user/17145
_______________________________________________
cc-licenses mailing list
cc-licenses AT lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/cc-licenses

_______________________________________________
cc-licenses mailing list
cc-licenses AT lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/cc-licenses

--
http://www.ourmedia.org/node/145261
Record a song and you might win $1,000.00
http://www.ourmedia.org/user/17145
_______________________________________________
cc-licenses mailing list
cc-licenses AT lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/cc-licenses

_______________________________________________
cc-licenses mailing list
cc-licenses AT lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/cc-licenses

--
http://www.ourmedia.org/node/145261
Record a song and you might win $1,000.00
http://www.ourmedia.org/user/17145
_______________________________________________
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