Baslinux mailing list

[Samual Acorn <sam.acorn AT gmail.com>]

On 24/12/05, sindi keesan <keesan AT sdf.lonestar.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> heres a quote from that page;
> >>> "Using zImage instead of bzImage avoids the problem (since zImage is
> >>> not loaded high)"
> >>>
> >>> renaming the file wont change anything... if its compressed it must be
> >>> decompressed (loadlin detects the compression... AFAIK the naming of
> >>> the file is for convenience only) .... and since there is only 640k of
> >>> low mem that means it gets decompressed into high memory.... and in
> >>> order to (properly) load anything beyond the 1MB barrier A20 must be
> >>> turned on...
> >>>
> >>> (zimages can only be made as big as ~500k because anything bigger wont
> >>> fit into low memory... )
> >>
> >> Thanks for this explanation.  Does it compile as gzipped vs bzipped?
> >
> > i think that has to be done manually... but dont quote me on that
> >
> >>
> >> I made my latest kernel as a bzImage but it is 484K.  Would it boot 
> >> faster
> >> or more reliably as a zimage?
> >
> > only if its 484K when -uncompressed- ... as long as its compressed it
> > will load high... no matter how small...
>
> I just compiled it again as a plain zimage.  The bzimage is 505841 and the
> zimage 505842 bytes.  md5sums completely different.
>
> The kernels both boot on my fastest computer in about 10 seconds despite
> floppy drives.  The bzimage might have taken 11 seconds.
>
> I renamed zImage to zimage.gz and gunzip says it is not in gzip format.
> What sort of compression is used for the kernel?

ive seen gzip and bzip... you dont need to rename it to try and
decompress it... if it doesnt decompress its not compressed... (try
both formats tho)

>
> >>> so why does basic linux suffer? my theory is that the problem is not
> >>> with loadlin but DOS... DOS 7 will load himem.sys regardless if it is
> >>> in config.sys or not... IIRC himem.sys turns A20 on.... so with A20
> >>
> >> I am using DOS 7.1 standalone (from China).  I just turned on the 
> >> computer
> >> and hit F5 to bypass my startrup files.  Typed 'mem /c /p' (I don't know
> >> where this 'mem' came from)
> >> Modules using memory below 1Mb:
> >> MS-DOS  79K conventional memory
> >> COMMAND 10K conventional memory
> >> Nothing in upper memory
> >> FREE  550K  (with various drivers loaded it goes down to about 528K, less
> >> if I add scsi or usb drivers)
> >>
> >> I don't see himem.sys here.
> >
> > does mem show that all the himem is used or free? if it shows it as
> > being free himem.sys is loaded....
>
> Upper memory 0K used 0K free.
> I can boot bzimage.

thats because loadlin is using making use of hi memory on its own...
it doesnt need himem.sys to work...

>
> > my gut thinks himem.sys is still being loaded... F5 doesnt do
> > anything... if himem.sys is on the same drive dos 7 is booting from it
>
> 'bypassing your system files'
> This is not Win98 but standalone MS DOS7.1 which used to be posted on the
> web by someone in China.
>
> > -will- be loaded.... why? scandisk needs it to work with large
> > drives... so it loads even when you boot safe mode for the pourpose of
> > checking your drive (probably the reason M$ thinks you booted to safe
> > mode in the first place.... make sense?)
> >
> >>
> >> If I don't hit F5 I actually have MORE free lower memory:
> >
> > emm386 helps on that one... thats where the 'loadhigh' comes into play...
> >
> > a tip for DOS 6.22+; put "HIGHSCAN" (sans quotes) behind the emm386
> > and you will get even -more- low mem free...
> >
> >>         conventional upper
> >> system  11K             7K
> >> himem   1
> >> emm386  3
> >> aspi8dos 21     (for scsi zip drive)
> >> doskey   4
> >> oakcdrom                35
> >> command                 7
> >> mscdex                  23
> >> Free    600             1
> >>
>
> >> Note there is no 'MS-DOS 79K' - it must be taking over the functions of
> >> himem.sys, 'system' and other things by default.
>
> >>
> >>> already on.. running loadlin just adds to any problems that may be
> >>> there since it might try to turn it on... or see if its on.... and
> >>> ceartain methods of checking if its on will turn it off (or viceversa)
> >>> or cause other hardware... like the trident card... to get messed
> >>> up...
> >>
> >> What exactly does the trident card do wrong?  I did not follow the
> >> explanation.
> >
> > the trident cards are getting confused when the 'fast' option of the
> > A20 gate is used (or misused).... call it a hardware bug (on the
> > vidcards part)... disable 'fast gate a20 option' in the bios... you
> > dont need it if you use linux anyway... (you will if you use dos
> > often)
>
> Is this option needed to use himem.sys or does it just speed things up?

speed things up

>
> Is your trident card in a laptop and if not, why don't you just replace
> it?  I gave up on using Alliance cards, they work badly with SVGAlib.

i dont have a trident card... and the one i did have at one point in
time i never had any problems with (other than the lack of video
memory which is why i got rid of it)  i pasted that initial
link/message here because the biggest problem i hear on this list is
that "X doesnt work".... figured someone/anyone could use the info to
help diagnose any problems....

>
> >>
> >>> a trick; format a floppy and 'sys' dos to it... delete command.com
> >>> from that floppy and make a config.sys with a single line in it;
> >>>
> >>> SHELL="loadlin ........." (where .... is loadlins paramiters)
> >>>
> >>> you can of course keep baslin on the harddrive... just change the
> >>> loadlin parameters to point to where the kernel and root filesystems
> >>> are.... that way you have a clean DOS that only booted to real
> >>> mode.... letting loadlin and linux do whatever they wish with A20 and
> >>> the system memory...  this would of course only be a temorary "see if
> >>> it fixes the problem" type of thing...
> >>
> >> What exactly does this do?
> >
> > strip dos down to little more than a bootloader for linux... only
> > thing that is loaded is msdos.sys and io.sys... command.com is not
> > loaded (its not needed) and DOS (io.sys/msdos.sys) will load loadlin
> > as what it thinks is an alternate shell (and thus boot linux) rather
> > than loading the default command.com... this will free up as much
> > memory as possible and will ensure himem.sys is not loaded...
>
> You are saying himem.sys will get loaded if the BIOS thinks it is needed?

the bios doesnt know about dos... it wont load himem.sys.. dos does
that.... but since you are using a standalone version of 7 it may very
well have been hacked to not load himem.sys when booted to safe
mode... i dunno... ive only used the dos 7 that has windoze attached
to it... and when used in safe mode -that- dos loads himem.sys
regardless of what you tell it to do/not to do...

ive never used dos 7 standalone since freedos does the job just as
good... www.freedos.org

>
> >
> >>
> >>> btw, bigger kernels also have better support for broken hardware...
> >>> that is... if they are loaded properly...
> >>
> >> Is it possible to rewrite the kernel source code or the Makefile or
> >> something in order to get a smaller 2.4 kernel that does not work on 
> >> quite
> >> as much hardware but fits on a floppy disk better?
> >
> > of course... but im not a miracle worker so you're on your own on that 
> > one...
>
> Angels write kernel source code?

if you want to call linus an angel... maybe... but i think he better
fits the role of 'god'.... ;)

>
> >
> > your best bet when it comes to computers would be to get a 'big'
> > distro like slackware (the real slackware) and install it (by itself)
> > on one system then use another system as your wintendo... this is what
> > i do... booting one os from another is just asking for problems....
> > just look at windoze 3.1 and 9x/me ;)
> >
> > definition of wintendo; http://catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/W/Wintendo.html
> >
>
> A Windows computer kept mainly for viewing media and playing games. I am
> using not Windows but DOS 7.10 on four partitions (hda) and BL3/BL2 on
> hdb.  So far I have not needed a big slackware.  (Still can't get lpr to
> work though).  Am I the only list member using no other linux but BL?

...you're kidding right? seriously... get a full distro and install it
properly (no dos... use lilo or something designed to actually
properly boot linux)

basiclinux is fun... but as its name implies.... its extreamly...
well... basic... you are missing out on quite a bit on things
like..... mozilla....

>
> > if the goal of the floppy *nix is for something portable that can be
> > taken from system to system your best bet would be to use the
> > LS120/240 or ZIP drives.... or make a live CD whose settings are saved
>
> David Moberg made a floppy boot disk image (GRUB?)  with 2.2.16 kernel to
> boot to BL3 on parport zip disk.  Not all computers will boot from ZIP
> disk and I don't want to carry around a parport ZIP drive, which is why he
> also made us a 1-floppy syslinux 2.4.31 USB-storage/mouse/keyboard disk
> that fits in a camera case.

i take it your camera doesnt have removable memory cards? might be a
good time to invest in something newer... or older (35mm still gets
the job done)

of all the digicams out there i would reccommend the sony mavica...
either the FDD or CD version... doesnt matter... that way the camera
stores the images on something that is easily read... no drivers to
screw around with.... and unlimited (and cheap) storage capacity (as
many floppies or mini CDRs as you are willing to carry)

>
> The only problem is with some laptops that have dead or no floppy drives.

boot from a flash-ram PCMCIA device then?

>
> Regarding live CD's, DSL live CD from a few years ago could not handle our
> USB camera or card reader.  Linux From Scratch offers an interesting live
> CD with mutt, links, w3m, lynx, and minimal X - don't know about USB.  I
> have the SW91 live CD, which works with the camera, for floppyless
> laptops.  It takes much longer to boot.  How complicated is it to make a
> live CD of BL with kernel 2.4.31?

el-torito (bootable cd standard) is in the mkisofs manual page...
should also be in the howto....

>
> > to floppy... other than that there is no real reason to have a -need-
> > to cram linux onto a floppy... floppies have a MTBF of 20hrs so you
> > wouldnt be able to boot very many times anyway...
>
> Mine, if they are okay when I get them used, last longer than this.  Sort
> of like life expectancy at birth versus at age 40.

its past the 'burn-in' test... but i abuse(d) (many reads and writes
and formats and.....) floppies rather horridly (much like i abuse
cdrom drives today (much reading... to the point they cant even see
pressed CDs anymore)  im currently on the already deteriorating cdrom
drive #4) so on this YM of course will V

>
> The 360Ks very rarely go bad.

the head in a 360K drive is wider than a 1.2MB and a 1.2MB is wider
than a 1.44MB 3 1/2.... (wider = more room for error)

format a floppy in a 360K drive to 160K and it will never go bad (tho
you wont be able to fit much on it)  ;)

>
> > there are also tricks like formatting a floppy to 1.68MB (this is
> > possible on 99% of floppy disk controllers... tho windows/dos cannot
> > create this format it can read it...) so you can cram more
> > kernel/filesystem on your floppy... might also want to consider
> > dropping dos and using syslinux for booting linux from floppy...
>
> Maybe David would like to use this approach to add more files.

possibly... but remember... there is that 1% of drives out there that
wont be able to read it...

>
> > syslinux here; http://syslinux.zytor.com/
> >
> >
> >>
> >>> YMMV
> >>>
> >>> On 22/12/05, sindi keesan <keesan AT sdf.lonestar.org> wrote:
> >>>> It says to avoid a certain hardware problem by using zImage instead of
> >>>> bzImage.  But if the kernel is over a certain size (around 500K?) you
> >>>> are not allowed to make a zImage, only a bzImage.  I have been 
> >>>> renaming my
> >>>> bzImages to zimage and loadlin works anyway.  Are these gzipped and
> >>>> bzipped files that loadlin can detect without .gz or .bz2 ?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Thu, 22 Dec 2005, Samual Acorn wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> playing around with lowlevel hardware access in windoze 2k (yes i know
> >>>>> its a no no... but i like playing) i had problems getting a ceartain
> >>>>> programs timing to work properly... would slow waaaay down till i hit
> >>>>> a key (any key)... then "0x60" flew out of a rather rusty part of my
> >>>>> brain... fixed my problem and lead me to search for what all (if
> >>>>> anything other than the keyboard) is at 0x60 and i came across a
> >>>>> rather interesting page... might be of some use;
> >>>>>
> >>>>> http://www.win.tue.nl/~aeb/linux/kbd/A20.html
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> --sam
> >>>>> http://mephitus.renamon.org/
> _______________________________________________
> BasLinux mailing list
> BasLinux AT lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/baslinux
>


--
--sam
http://mephitus.renamon.org/
"When you've done something right, no one will be sure you've done
anything at all." -- Futurama
--