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Re: [b-hebrew] Fw: barak (bless? curse?) in the Book of Job

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  • From: John Estell <oldearther AT yahoo.com>
  • To: bill.rea AT canterbury.ac.nz, b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Fw: barak (bless? curse?) in the Book of Job
  • Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 13:00:25 -0800 (PST)
Bill,

I'm not talking about the mathematical notion of infinity. I'm simply talking
about the idea of time continuing forever.

John Estell




________________________________
From: Bill Rea <bsr15 AT cantsl.it.canterbury.ac.nz>
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Sunday, February 1, 2009 4:13:40 PM
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Fw: barak (bless? curse?) in the Book of Job

John asked:

>See Psalms 41:14, 90:2, 103:17, and 106:48.?? Isn't God to be blessed
>forever?

and

>Thanks for clarifying.? So you wouldn't consider "infinite time" to mean
>something opposite of "finite time"???

There is a problem with applying modern terminology to ancient
writings. The Hebrews did not leave us with anything that could be
considered a detailed mathematical text. So what did they know or
understand about mathematics? The question is unanswerable. If we
look at other civilizations their understanding of ``infinity''
doesn't exist. The Greeks did not have either a zero or an
infinity. You can look up Zeno's paradox, for example here

http://www.mathacademy.com/pr/prime/articles/zeno_tort/index.asp

To solve the paradox you need *both* zero and infinity. So
when you ask ``So you wouldn't consider "infinite time" to mean
something opposite of "finite time"???'' you are applying our
understanding to writings where there is no evidence they understood
the concept of infinity. (WLM cannot be taken to mean an infinite
amount of time, just indefinitely long.

Bill Rea, Ph.D. ICT Services, University of Canterbury \_
E-Mail bill.rea AT canterbury.ac.nz                      </  New
Phone 64-3-364-2331, Fax  64-3-364-2332              /)  Zealand
Unix Systems Administrator                          (/'

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>From l_barre AT yahoo.com Mon Feb 2 15:42:21 2009
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From: LM Barre <l_barre AT yahoo.com>
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Subject: [b-hebrew] A different generation of biblical scholarship
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I simply wished to say that my particular brand of scholarship is of 1986
vintage, at which time I received my doctorate.  We were asking the big
questions.  Pentateuchal studies was divided into studies of J, E and P.  We
were also working on the Deuteronomistic Historian and the Deuteronomic
school.  In fact, there was intense interests in all the biblical
literature--wisdom literature, hymnic literature, post-exilic literature. 
Methodology was discussed--form criticism, tradition history, source
criticism, rhetorical criticism and so on.  In this sense, then, I am a
traditionalist who is out of step with what largely goes on here at b-Hebrew. 
I do not understand what the task is here.  Can someone speak to what is
going on here?  It eludes me.

 
Lloyd Barré
http://freewebs.com/lmbarre
 



>From l_barre AT yahoo.com Mon Feb 2 15:55:34 2009
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From: LM Barre <l_barre AT yahoo.com>
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Subject: [b-hebrew] Dtr1 insertion in 2 Kings 9:7-10
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Here is an example of how Dtr1 used sources but edited them to suit his
purposes.  The destruction of the northen kingdoms of Jeroboam and Baasha are
said to have occurred because they did not worship in Jerusalem.  Jezebel's
death is also portrayed here as "predicted."  The study of such texts is
called redaction criticism.  Dtr1 is basically a framework into which he used
various sources, like the Elijah-Elisha cycles.  Here he is using what called
be called, The Apology of Jehoiada (9-11*).
 
1 The prophet Elisha summoned a man from the company of the prophets and said
to him, "Tuck your cloak into your belt, take this flask of oil with you and
go to Ramoth Gilead. 2 When you get there, look for Jehu son of Jehoshaphat,
the son of Nimshi. Go to him, get him away from his companions and take him
into an inner room. 3 Then take the flask and pour the oil on his head and
declare, 'This is what the LORD says: I anoint you king over Israel..' Then
open the door and run; don't delay!"
 4 So the young man, the prophet, went to Ramoth Gilead. 5 When he arrived,
he found the army officers sitting together. "I have a message for you,
commander," he said.
      "For which of us?" asked Jehu.
      "For you, commander," he replied.
 6 Jehu got up and went into the house. Then the prophet poured the oil on
Jehu's head and declared, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'I
anoint you king over the LORD's people Israel.
 
[7 You are to destroy the house of Ahab your master, and I will avenge the
blood of my servants the prophets and the blood of all the LORD's servants
shed by Jezebel. 8 The whole house of Ahab will perish. I will cut off from
Ahab every last male in Israel—slave or free. 9 I will make the house of Ahab
like the house of Jeroboam son of Nebat and like the house of Baasha son of
Ahijah. 10 As for Jezebel, dogs will devour her on the plot of ground at
Jezreel, and no one will bury her.' "]
 
Then he opened the door and ran.


 
Lloyd Barré
http://freewebs.com/lmbarre
 



>From ougaritique AT yahoo.fr Mon Feb 2 09:31:39 2009
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From: Laurent Pinchard <ougaritique AT yahoo.fr>
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Famous Dtr1 text (2 Kings 17) (LM Barre)
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dear Sir,

I saw your two latest comments on JEDP identifications of several texts. Do
you have also the same type of analysis on Ex 32 (golden calf) identifying
JED (P?) verses within this chapter? Do you know why Ex 32 ends with v.35 
as one could have easily included Ex 33,1-6 in the same chapter?

regds
 
laurent



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Today's Topics:

  1. Re: 1Q287 and the Tanakh at Deut. 32:43 (Gary Hedrick)
  2. 1Q287 Tanakh Deut. 32:43 (kenneth greifer)
  3. Re: Bethsaida (Yigal Levin)
  4. Re: 1Q287 Tanakh Deut. 32:43 (Yigal Levin)
  5. Re; Samaritans (Gabe Eisenstein)
  6. Re: Fw: barak (bless? curse?) in the Book of Job (Bill Rea)
  7. Phonetic Values in the Hebrew Alphabet (George Athas)
  8. 1Q287 Deut. 32:43 (kenneth greifer)
  9. Re: Bethsaida (George Athas)
  10. Re: 1Q287 Tanakh Deut. 32:43 (George Athas)
  11. Re: 1Q287 Tanakh Deut. 32:43 (TedBro AT aol.com)
  12. Joshua presented as Josiah (LM Barre)
  13. Re: Joshua presented as Josiah (George Athas)
  14. Re: 1Q287 Deut. 32:43 (Steve Miller)
  15. Isaiah 53 as Zerubbabel's eulogy (LM Barre)
  16. A Famous Dtr1 text (2 Kings 17) (LM Barre)
  17. Dating the major Literary Complexes of the Hebrew Bible (LM Barre)
  18. Re: woman (Harold Holmyard)
  19. Re: "daughter of Zion" [was: (bless? curse?) in the Book of
      Job] (Harold Holmyard)
  20. Re: Bethsaida (K Randolph)
  21. Re: A Famous Dtr1 text (2 Kings 17) (George Athas)
  22. Re: Phonetic Values in the Hebrew Alphabet (K Randolph)
  23. Re: 1Q287 and the Tanakh at Deut. 32:43 (Avi Wollman)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 12:24:32 -0600
From: Gary Hedrick <garyh AT cjfm.org>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] 1Q287 and the Tanakh at Deut. 32:43
To: Yigal Levin <leviny1 AT mail.biu.ac.il>
Cc: b-hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <0124144B-B7D3-42F1-9A7D-8DDDE0725B44 AT cjfm.org>
Content-Type: text/plain;    charset=us-ascii;    format=flowed;   
delsp=yes

Interesting. And the Hebrew formulation benei elohim could be 
understood as angels anyway, based on the useage in Job.

Gary Hedrick

On Jan 31, 2009, at 10:04 PM, Yigal Levin <leviny1 AT mail.biu.ac.il> 
wrote:

> Gary,
>
> The LXX text which I'm working with has both. The full verse is: 
> "Be glad,
> O heavens, together with Him, and do obeisance to Him, all angels of 
> God; Be
> glad O nations with His people, and grow in strength, O sons of God; 
> for the
> blood of his sons He shall avenge, and he shall avenge and recompense
> punishment to the enemies, and to the ones detesting him he shall
> recompense, and the Lord shall clear out the land for His people".
>
> Yigal Levin
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>


------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 19:10:13 +0000
From: kenneth greifer <greifer AT hotmail.com>
Subject: [b-hebrew] 1Q287 Tanakh Deut. 32:43
To: <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <COL116-W58F2001D4F7AAF4D283874A7C40 AT phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"


Ted,

I think it was kind of insulting to Jewish people to say that the Masoretic
scholars would drop a quote from the Torah because it could be used as a
proof text by Christians. You said that all people are biased, so maybe you
believe that Christians added some proof texts. I know that we can't discuss
religion on B-hebrew, but it does not seem fair that you can say bad things
about Jewish people, but you don't say bad things about Christian people.

I think the Jewish scholars did not drop controversial quotes from the Torah
because there are many so called "proof texts" in the Tanakh. If they had
dropped them, then there would be many fewer quotes, and this particular
quote you pointed out does not even sound like a Messianic proof quote to me.

I will probably be in trouble for writing this, but I can't believe what you
said, and that nobody said anything about it.

Kenneth Greifer

_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live?: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect.
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------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 21:48:55 +0200
From: Yigal Levin <leviny1 AT mail.biu.ac.il>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Bethsaida
To: b-hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <013901c984a6$1def4f30$66a314ac@xp>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
    reply-type=original

Karl,

Perhaps it went the other way: CYD first meant "hunting" (not as a sport but
as a way of providing food), and then the noun Cayyid took on the general
meaning of "provisions".

Yigal Levin

----- Original Message -----
From: "K Randolph" <kwrandolph AT gmail.com>
To: "b-hebrew" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2009 3:21 PM
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Bethsaida


>
> Yigal:
>
> If it truly is TsYD the word meant in Beth-saida, I see the possibility
> that
> it started as a place preparing food for the fishermen and other boatmen.
> Possibly a family business. Then the place grew over time as other fishing
> related business located there.
>
> The word has as its basic root the meaning of getting provisions, such as
> for a journey. It is used that way in Joshua 9. See also Nehemiah 13:15.
> These stories also shows that hunting was not a sport, rather a way of
> getting provisions.
>
> Karl W. Randolph.
>
> On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 11:47 PM, Yigal Levin
> <leviny1 AT mail.biu.ac.il>wrote:
>
>> It is often assumed that Beth-saida means "House of the hunters", with
>> the
>> form being Aramaic rather than Hebrew. Assuming the site to be on or near
>> the Sea of Galilee, the "hunters" would actually be fishermen. "Sidon",
>> the
>> well-know Pheonician port, would be dirived from the same word.
>>
>> Rami Arav, who for years has been excavating a major site just north of
>> the
>> Sea of Galilee which he identifies as Bethsaida, has also suggested that
>> the
>> "Ziddim Zer" (the Z here stands for Sade, as in Beth-saida and in Sidon)
>> mentioned in Josh 19:35 in the inheretance of Naphtali, is the Iron Age
>> form
>> of the same name, perhaps originally "Hacayyadim".
>>
>> Yigal Levin
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: <JBarach AT aol.com>
>> To: <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 3:39 AM
>> Subject: [b-hebrew] Bethsaida
>>
>>
>> >
>> > BHaverim --
>> >
>> > What does the name "Bethsaida" mean?  "Beth," obviously, means
>> > "house."
>> > But
>> > what about the "Saida"?  I'm not even sure what the  Hebrew root word
>> here
>> > might be.  One commentary I have says it means  "House of Provisioning"
>> > (Austin
>> > Farrer) and another says "House of Fishermen"  (John Donahue & Daniel
>> > Harrington) -- and all the rest that I have say  nothing about the
>> meaning
>> > of the name
>> > at all.
>> >
>> > I'd be glad to hear what you think.  (I ask this on the B-Hebrew list,
>> > even
>> > though "Bethsaida" appears only in the Greek, because it's obvious a
>> > Hebrew
>> > name.  Hope this isn't a problem.)
>> >
>> > Thanks in advance!
>> >
>> > John
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
>> > John Barach    (541) 531-2906
>> > Pastor, Christ Church (CREC)
>> > 706 Beekman Avenue
>> > Medford, OR  97501
>> > _http://barach.us_ (http://barach.us)
> _______________________________________________
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Message: 4
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 21:51:42 +0200
From: Yigal Levin <leviny1 AT mail.biu.ac.il>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] 1Q287 Tanakh Deut. 32:43
To: b-hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <015601c984a6$81cf64e0$66a314ac@xp>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=windows-1252;
    reply-type=original

Kenneth,

There's no reason for you to be "in trouble", but I don't think that Ted
intended to insult anyone. While I don't agree with his asessment, he does
have a right to state his opinion.

Yigal Levin

----- Original Message -----
From: "kenneth greifer" <greifer AT hotmail.com>
To: <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2009 9:10 PM
Subject: [b-hebrew] 1Q287 Tanakh Deut. 32:43


>
>
> Ted,
>
> I think it was kind of insulting to Jewish people to say that the
> Masoretic scholars would drop a quote from the Torah because it could be
> used as a proof text by Christians. You said that all people are biased,
> so maybe you believe that Christians added some proof texts. I know that
> we can't discuss religion on B-hebrew, but it does not seem fair that you
> can say bad things about Jewish people, but you don't say bad things about
> Christian people.
>
> I think the Jewish scholars did not drop controversial quotes from the
> Torah because there are many so called "proof texts" in the Tanakh. If
> they had dropped them, then there would be many fewer quotes, and this
> particular quote you pointed out does not even sound like a Messianic
> proof quote to me.
>
> I will probably be in trouble for writing this, but I can't believe what
> you said, and that nobody said anything about it.
>
> Kenneth Greifer
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Windows Live?: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect.
> http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_allup_howitworks_012009
> _______________________________________________
> b-hebrew mailing list
> b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
>
>


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20:03



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Message: 5
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 12:06:21 -0800
From: Gabe Eisenstein <gabe AT cascadeaccess.com>
Subject: [b-hebrew] Re; Samaritans
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <498600BD.9070005 AT cascadeaccess.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Uri,

you wrote:
? It is interesting how different readers?draw different conclusions
?from the same work by?E. Tov. He stated that the Mishnah uses
?exclusively the MT.

My statement about the Talmud wasn't derived from Tov, but from examples
of non-MT readings I have encountered myself in the Talmudic text. (I
also recall that the notes in Soncino & Schottenstein mention that there
are numerous such examples.) I cannot say whether those variations come
from other text-types within the proto-MT family or not, but they do
seem to tell against the fixity of the text hundreds of years earlier.

?
?He also gave a number of examples how the Samaritan simplified?,
?"harmonized", difficult grammatical forms and rendered them in the
?standard way. That indicates that the Sasmaritan is later than the
?version which eventually?became the MT. It is reasonable to assume
?that the difficult forms had come down by tradition, and were simplified
?by?later editors.

There is no doubt that the Samaritan harmonizations (as between parallel
passages in Exodus and Deuteronomy), pious corrections and
simplifications represent later layers, in addition to the ideological
layer I mentioned previously (e.g. 10th commandment to build Temple on
Gerizim). You could also add that the Samaritan spelling variations are
mostly later, since they tend to involve more of the "plene" forms. None
of this changes the fact that variations remain that fall into none of
these categories, and which sometimes agree with DSS and/or LXX as
against MT. That's why Tov postulated a proto-Samaritan text-type
belonging to the Palestinian branch of the tree, notwithstanding the
arguably later layers in the SP proper.


Gabe Eisenstein


------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 10:13:40 +1300 (NZDT)
From: Bill Rea <bsr15 AT cantsl.it.canterbury.ac.nz>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Fw: barak (bless? curse?) in the Book of Job
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID:
    <Pine.SOL.4.58.0902020933110.24521 AT cantsl.it.canterbury.ac.nz>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

John asked:

>See Psalms 41:14, 90:2, 103:17, and 106:48.?? Isn't God to be blessed
>forever?

and

>Thanks for clarifying.? So you wouldn't consider "infinite time" to mean
>something opposite of "finite time"???

There is a problem with applying modern terminology to ancient
writings. The Hebrews did not leave us with anything that could be
considered a detailed mathematical text. So what did they know or
understand about mathematics? The question is unanswerable. If we
look at other civilizations their understanding of ``infinity''
doesn't exist. The Greeks did not have either a zero or an
infinity. You can look up Zeno's paradox, for example here

http://www.mathacademy.com/pr/prime/articles/zeno_tort/index.asp

To solve the paradox you need *both* zero and infinity. So
when you ask ``So you wouldn't consider "infinite time" to mean
something opposite of "finite time"???'' you are applying our
understanding to writings where there is no evidence they understood
the concept of infinity. (WLM cannot be taken to mean an infinite
amount of time, just indefinitely long.

Bill Rea, Ph.D. ICT Services, University of Canterbury \_
E-Mail bill.rea AT canterbury.ac.nz                      </  New
Phone 64-3-364-2331, Fax  64-3-364-2332              /)  Zealand
Unix Systems Administrator                          (/'



------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 08:31:23 +1100
From: George Athas <George.Athas AT moore.edu.au>
Subject: [b-hebrew] Phonetic Values in the Hebrew Alphabet
To: B-Hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <C5AC5FDB.234C%george.athas AT moore.edu.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Hi Karl!

It's an interesting question to see how the alphabet was adopted and adapted
by different people groups. The methodology you are employing is to attach
Greek values to the graphemes and read these back into the pronunciation of
Hebrew and/or Phoenician. Now, you may well be right in some of your
estimation, but we have no sure way of knowing.

What I can say is that your reasoning with the pronunciation of teth is
almost certainly wrong. While the Greek grapheme theta was pronounced as a
/th/ sound by the turn of the era (and indeed is pronounced that way in
modern Greek), in Classical Greek it most probably was not pronounced that
way. Both the letters theta and phi were probably not aspirated to produce
the softer sound, but were probably plosive sounds. This would make Classical
Greek theta sound very much like the technically correct pronunciation of
Hebrew teth. Hebrew has no equivalent for a plosive /p/.

Greek also had a couple of letters it adopted from the Semitic alphabet, but
which dropped out of use: koppa (cf. Qoph) and digamma (a /w/ phoneme; cf.
Waw).

Another thing to be aware of in assigning phonetic values is the regional
differences. Even today one can discern markedly different pronunciation
schemes amongst Arabic speakers. As best as we can determine, a similar
phenomenon prevailed throughout ancient history. The classic "shibboleth"
story in Judges is the most obvious case in point. Considering how Ugaritic
was probably pronounced, we must be prepared for various phonetic shifts.

Finally, we have no way of verifying who first came up with the alphabet.
Your post implied it was the Hebrews (however we can define that term).
General consensus goes for the Phoenicians. However, when it comes down to
it, we just don't know who it was.


Regards,

GEORGE ATHAS
Moore Theological College (Sydney, Australia)
www.moore.edu.au



------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 21:32:27 +0000
From: kenneth greifer <greifer AT hotmail.com>
Subject: [b-hebrew] 1Q287 Deut. 32:43
To: <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <COL116-W304A1929CBD29BC2BD995DA7C40 AT phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"


Yigal,

If someone says that Jewish scholars dropped a line from the Torah to keep
people from believing in their religion, they are also saying that all of the
Jewish people of that time went along with these scholars. This is an
accusation that all Jewish people in the past were willing to change the
Torah, no matter how sacred they considered G-d's words to be, in order to
deceive other people about the truth about G-d.

I think it is not just a simple comment about a few scholars.

Kenneth Greifer
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live? Hotmail?:?more than just e-mail.
http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_explore_012009

------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 08:35:12 +1100
From: George Athas <George.Athas AT moore.edu.au>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Bethsaida
To: B-Hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <C5AC60C0.2350%george.athas AT moore.edu.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

That's a very good suggestion, Yigal. The 'hunter-gatherer' etymology sounds
quite plausible.


Regards,

GEORGE ATHAS
Moore Theological College (Sydney, Australia)
www.moore.edu.au



________________________________
From: Yigal Levin <leviny1 AT mail.biu.ac.il>
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 06:48:55 +1100
To: B-Hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Bethsaida

Karl,

Perhaps it went the other way: CYD first meant "hunting" (not as a sport but
as a way of providing food), and then the noun Cayyid took on the general
meaning of "provisions".

Yigal Levin




------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 08:39:12 +1100
From: George Athas <George.Athas AT moore.edu.au>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] 1Q287 Tanakh Deut. 32:43
To: B-Hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <C5AC61B0.2354%george.athas AT moore.edu.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

I agree that Ted did not intend to insult anyone. However, I think he has
overstated the historical situation. We do know that Christians and Jews
argued over exegesis of verses in the Hebrew Bible during late antiquity. The
best case example is the interpretation of Isa 7.14 (please let's not dredge
up what this verse means AGAIN!!!). Christians produced a markedly Christian
understanding of the verse, while Jews produced a markedly Jewish
understanding.


Regards,

GEORGE ATHAS
Moore Theological College (Sydney, Australia)
www.moore.edu.au




------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 16:48:06 EST
From: TedBro AT aol.com
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] 1Q287 Tanakh Deut. 32:43
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <d52.3f76aeeb.36b77296 AT aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Kenneth:

First of all, I'm Jewish and I certainly did not intend to insult either 
all
Jewish people or the Massoretes. However, given variety in the available 
manuscript families, it is undeniable that groups tend to use those that
support 
their particular view. The verse in question is a Christian proof text in
that  it claims a high station for Christ such that the angels of God
worship
him.

An example of such biases from the NT, and I hope I don't get in trouble 
for
this either, is a verse in 1 John 5:7 that crept into late manuscripts to 
support the Trinity, parapharsing "there are three that bear witness in
Heaven, 
the Father, Son and Holy Ghost and these three are one." Manuscripts from 
before the 15th century do not contain these words, Nevertheless they got
into 
the King James Version. This, of course, is not to say that a scribe made it
up  out of whole cloth. The added words may have been a scribal gloss that
was
added  to the text in stages.

Peace,
Ted Brownstein
============


In a message dated 2/1/2009 2:52:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
leviny1 AT mail.biu.ac.il writes:

Kenneth,

There's no reason for you to be "in trouble", but I  don't think that Ted
intended to insult anyone. While I don't agree with  his asessment, he does
have a right to state his opinion.

Yigal  Levin

----- Original Message -----
From: "kenneth greifer"  <greifer AT hotmail.com>
To: <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent:  Sunday, February 01, 2009 9:10 PM
Subject: [b-hebrew] 1Q287 Tanakh Deut.  32:43


>
>
> Ted,
>
> I think it was kind  of insulting to Jewish people to say that the
> Masoretic scholars  would drop a quote from the Torah because it could be
> used as a proof  text by Christians. You said that all people are biased,
> so maybe you  believe that Christians added some proof texts. I know that
> we can't  discuss religion on B-hebrew, but it does not seem fair that you
> can  say bad things about Jewish people, but you don't say bad things
> about

> Christian people.
>
> I think the Jewish scholars did not  drop controversial quotes from the
> Torah because there are many so  called "proof texts" in the Tanakh. If
> they had dropped them, then  there would be many fewer quotes, and this
> particular quote you  pointed out does not even sound like a Messianic
> proof quote to  me.
>
> I will probably be in trouble for writing this, but I  can't believe what
> you said, and that nobody said anything about  it.
>
> Kenneth  Greifer
>


**************From Wall Street to Main Street and everywhere in between, stay
up-to-date with the latest news. (http://aol.com?ncid=emlcntaolcom00000023)


------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 14:04:45 -0800 (PST)
From: LM Barre <l_barre AT yahoo.com>
Subject: [b-hebrew] Joshua presented as Josiah
To: Ancient Bible History <AncientBibleHistory AT yahoogroups.com>,
    b-Hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <813506.21473.qm AT web110006.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252

The Deuteronomistic Historian portrayed Joshua after Josiah.? Here is a Dtr
text.
?
?1 After the death of Moses the servant of the LORD, the LORD said to Joshua
son of Nun, Moses' aide: 2 "Moses my servant is dead. Now then, you and all
these people, get ready to cross the Jordan River into the land I am about to
give to them?to the Israelites. 3 I will give you every place where you set
your foot, as I promised Moses. 4 Your territory will extend from the desert
to Lebanon, and from the great river, the Euphrates?all the Hittite
country?to the Great Sea [a] on the west. 5 No one will be able to stand up
against you all the days of your life. As I was with Moses, so I will be with
you; I will never leave you nor forsake you.
?6 "Be strong and courageous, because you will lead these people to inherit
the land I swore to their forefathers to give them. 7 Be strong and very
courageous. Be careful to obey all the law my servant Moses gave you; do not
turn from it to the right or to the left, that you may be successful wherever
you go. 8 Do not let this Book of the Law depart from your mouth; meditate on
it day and night, so that you may be careful to do everything written in it.
Then you will be prosperous and successful. 9 Have I not commanded you? Be
strong and courageous. Do not be terrified; do not be discouraged, for the
LORD your God will be with you wherever you go."
?
Comments?
?
Lloyd Barr?
http://freewebs.com/lmbarre
?


     

------------------------------

Message: 13
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 10:24:07 +1100
From: George Athas <George.Athas AT moore.edu.au>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Joshua presented as Josiah
To: B-Hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <C5AC7A47.2373%george.athas AT moore.edu.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

You'll need to provide a few more details about your thinking, here, Lloyd.
As is, the text you quote just sounds Deuteronomistic, making me think that
Joshua and Josiah are both wearing Deuteronomistic clothes. You'll need to
argue why you think there is a priority for the character of Josiah.


Regards,

GEORGE ATHAS
Moore Theological College (Sydney, Australia)
www.moore.edu.au




------------------------------

Message: 14
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 19:55:48 -0500
From: "Steve Miller" <smille10 AT sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] 1Q287 Deut. 32:43
To: "'kenneth greifer'" <greifer AT hotmail.com>,
    <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <30EDF5554018414FA8137A96F969DE4E@dell2>
Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="us-ascii"

Kenneth & Ted,
I don't think the MT scribes would drop a line from the Bible on purpose.
However when there were 2 variants already existing, I think, rather weakly,
that the MT committee had some bias against the variant that agreed with the
New Testament. This is only my opinion regarding *why* certain variants got
accepted over others in the MT. To me this *why* is not important, and is
probably not provable. I would be very glad for it to be proven false. What
is important is what the correct Text is.

An example is Isa 7:14. (This has nothing to do with "almah".) There is a
very significant difference between Matthew's quote and the MT text. MT
says, "you (2fs) shall call his name", which doesn't make sense because
there is no woman present, but is taken to mean that the child's mother
would name him Immanuel. There are many reasons a mother could name a child
Immanuel. It could be to express her feeling that God was with her people at
the time of the birth.

Matt 1:23 says "they shall call his name", 3rd person indef. subject, a
phrase common in the OT (Deu 25:10; Isa 9:6; Jer 23:6; Gen 32:28). When some
indefinite, large # of people, call his name Immanuel, that means that name
is what the child actually is. He is "God with us". It can be, but not
necessarily be, his actual name.

DSS matches Matt 1:23. However, the MT scribes did not add a tav to their
text to discredit the NT, because the MT exactly matches LXX even with the
2fs subject. The 2 variants existed before the birth of Christ.

Other examples are Ps 22:16 ("like a lion" vs "they pierced) and Isa 53:9
(deaths vs death).

There are also verses where the MT supports the NT, but the DSS does not. I
would not know about these because, if the MT and NT agree, I usually have
no reason to investigate further. One such example is the verse that Ted
started with - Deut 32:43. While the DSS and LXX agree with Hebrews 1:6 in
the NT, the DSS does not contain the phrase quoted by Rom 15:10, while MT
and LXX do.


Sincerely,
-Steve Miller
www.voiceInWilderness.info
And I saw: and behold, a black horse, and he that sat upon it having a
balance in his hand.  And I heard as a voice in the midst of the four living
creatures saying, A quart of wheat for a day's wages, and three quarts of
barley for a day's wages: and do not injure the oil and the wine. (Rev
6:5b-6)
The chariot in which are the black horses goes forth into the land of the
north. (Zech 6:6a)

> -----Original Message-----
> From kenneth greifer Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2009 4:32 PM
>
> Yigal,
>
> If someone says that Jewish scholars dropped a line from the Torah to keep
> people from believing in their religion, they are also saying that all of
> the Jewish people of that time went along with these scholars. This is an
> accusation that all Jewish people in the past were willing to change the
> Torah, no matter how sacred they considered G-d's words to be, in order to
> deceive other people about the truth about G-d.
>
> I think it is not just a simple comment about a few scholars.
>
> Kenneth Greifer




------------------------------

Message: 15
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 14:44:46 -0800 (PST)
From: LM Barre <l_barre AT yahoo.com>
Subject: [b-hebrew] Isaiah 53 as Zerubbabel's eulogy
To: Ancient Bible History <AncientBibleHistory AT yahoogroups.com>,
    b-Hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <158518.97318.qm AT web110010.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

We know from the prophet Haggai that the building of the temple excited
intense messianic fever:
?
2 Speak now to Zerubbabel son of Shealtiel, governor of Judea, and to Joshua
son of Jehozadak, the high priest, and to the remnant of the people, and say,
3 Who is left among you that saw this house in its former glory? How does it
look to you now? Is it not in your sight as nothing? 4 Yet now take courage,
O Zerubbabel, says Yahweh; take courage, O Joshua, son of Jehozadak, the high
priest; take courage, all you people of the land, says Yahweh; work, for I am
with you, says Yahweh of Armies, 5 according to the promise that I made you
when you came out of Egypt. My spirit abides among you; do not fear. 6 For
thus says Yahweh of Armies: Once again, in a little while, I will shake the
heavens and the earth and the sea and the dry land; 7 and I will shake all
the nations, so that the treasure of all nations shall come, and I will fill
this house with splendor, says the Yahweh of Armies. 8 The silver is mine,
and the gold is mine, says Yahweh of Armies. 9
The latter splendor of this house shall be greater than the former, says
Yahweh of Armies; and in this place I will give prosperity, says the Yahweh
of Armies.
?
?
And also this prophecy from Haggai:
?
20 The word of Yahweh came a second time to Haggai on the twenty-fourth day
of the month, 21 "Speak to Zerubbabel, governor of Judah, saying, I am about
to shake the heavens and the earth, 22 and to overthrow the throne of
kingdoms; I am about to destroy the strength of the kingdoms of the nations,
and overthrow the chariots and their riders; and the horses and their riders
shall go down, every one by the sword of his fellow. 23 On that day, says
Yahweh of Armies, I will take you, O Zerubbabel my servant, the son of
She-al'ti-el, says Yahweh, and make you like a signet ring; for I have chosen
you, says the Yahweh of Armies."
?
?
Needless to say, the expectation of Zerubbabel's political Messianism did not
materialize.
?
***
?
It appears that we have a text that relates to the proto-apocalyptic movement
discussed above in Isaiah 53:
?
1 Who has believed what we have heard? And to whom has the arm of Yahweh been
revealed? 2 For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out
of dry ground; he had no form or majesty that we should look at him, nothing
in his appearance that we should desire him. 3 He was despised and rejected
by others; a man of suffering and acquainted with infirmity; and as one from
whom others hide their faces he was despised and we held him of no account.?
4 Surely he has borne our infirmities and carried our diseases; yet we
accounted him stricken, struck down by God, and afflicted. 5 But he was
wounded for our transgressions, crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the
punishment that made us whole, and by his bruises we are healed. 6 All we
like sheep have gone astray; we have all turned to our own way, and Yahweh
has laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed, and he was
afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; like a lamb that is
led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so
he did not open his mouth. 8 By a perversion of justice he was taken away.
Who could have imagined his future? For he was cut off from the land of the
living, stricken for the transgression of my people. 9 They made his grave
with the wicked and his tomb? with the rich,? although he had done no , and
there was no deceit in his mouth. 10 Yet it was the will of Yahweh to crush
him with pain.? When you make his life an offering for sin, he shall see his
offspring, and shall prolong his days; through him the will of Yahweh shall
prosper. 11 Out of his anguish he shall see light; he shall find satisfaction
through his knowledge. The righteous one, my Servant, shall make many
righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore I will allot him
a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong;
because he poured out himself to , and was numbered with
the transgressors; yet he [actually] bore the sin of many, and made
intercession for the transgressors.
?
?
A key observation I wish to make is that Zerubbabel is called, "my Servant,"
a term that is applied in Isaiah to several parties.? I would identify this
servant with Zerubbabel because the literary genre of this Isaiah text seems
to be one of an official, state eulogy over the fallen ruler.? Verse 8 most
clearly indicates that the subject of the eulogy was arrested, tried and
executed for sedition under?the Persians just as Jesus was by the Romans.??
Thus, as with Jesus, we have an earlier instance of failed messianic
proto-Apocalypticism that is remarkably similar.? In both cases, the Temple
played an important and necessary role.? While for Zerubbabel, the building
of the Second Temple signaled the fulfillment of?his apocalyptic
expectations, for Jesus the Temple did not need to be rebuilt but rather only
cleansed.? In both cases, the readiness of the Temple was a prerequisite for
the coming Messianic rule.
?
The Isaiah eulogy not only provides a parallel experience to that of Jesus,
it also significantly contributes to the Christian view of Jesus.? According
to Isaiah, the Messianic Age failed to materialize because of the sins of the
people.? As a result, Zerubbabel significance was not to be found ultimately
in his life but in his death .? The Isaiah text explains that he died to
compensate for the sins of his people, and while these sins stopped the
coming of the Messianic Kingdom, it removed an important obstacle, making the
way clear for the coming of the Kingdom at some future time.? The whole
experience has left the author of 2 Isaiah with hope, although no longer an
urgent hope.? His emphasis?was rather upon the certainty of the realization
of that hope, rather than its imminence, a shift in thought that is entirely
understandable in light of?his historical circumstances.
Comments?

?
Lloyd Barr?
http://freewebs.com/lmbarre
?


     

------------------------------

Message: 16
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 14:49:51 -0800 (PST)
From: LM Barre <l_barre AT yahoo.com>
Subject: [b-hebrew] A Famous Dtr1 text (2 Kings 17)
To: Ancient Bible History <AncientBibleHistory AT yahoogroups.com>,
    b-Hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
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1 In the twelfth year of Ahaz king of Judah, Hoshea son of Elah became king
of Israel in Samaria, and he reigned nine years. 2 He did evil in the eyes of
the LORD, but not like the kings of Israel who preceded him.
?
[The regnal introductory and concluding formulae are Dtr1]
?
?3 Shalmaneser king of Assyria came up to attack Hoshea, who had been
Shalmaneser's vassal and had paid him tribute. 4 But the king of Assyria
discovered that Hoshea was a traitor, for he had sent envoys to So [a] king
of Egypt, and he no longer paid tribute to the king of Assyria, as he had
done year by year. Therefore Shalmaneser seized him and put him in prison. 5
The king of Assyria invaded the entire land, marched against Samaria and laid
siege to it for three years. 6 In the ninth year of Hoshea, the king of
Assyria captured Samaria and deported the Israelites to Assyria. He settled
them in Halah, in Gozan on the Habor River and in the towns of the Medes.
Israel Exiled Because of Sin ?7 All this took place because the Israelites
had sinned against the LORD their God, who had brought them up out of Egypt
from under the power of Pharaoh king of Egypt. They worshiped other gods 8
and followed the practices of the nations the LORD had driven out before
them, as well as the practices that the kings of Israel had introduced. 9 The
Israelites secretly did things against the LORD their God that were not
right. From watchtower to fortified city they built themselves high places in
all their towns. 10 They set up sacred stones and Asherah poles on every high
hill and under every spreading tree. 11 At every high place they burned
incense, as the nations whom the LORD had driven out before them had done.
They did wicked things that provoked the LORD to anger. 12 They worshiped
idols, though the LORD had said, "You shall not do this." [b] 13 The LORD
warned Israel and Judah through all his prophets and seers: "Turn
from your evil ways. Observe my commands and decrees, in accordance with the
entire Law that I commanded your fathers to obey and that I delivered to you
through my servants the prophets."
?14 But they would not listen and were as stiff-necked as their fathers, who
did not trust in the LORD their God. 15 They rejected his decrees and the
covenant he had made with their fathers and the warnings he had given them.
They followed worthless idols and themselves became worthless. They imitated
the nations around them although the LORD had ordered them, "Do not do as
they do," and they did the things the LORD had forbidden them to do.
?16 They forsook all the commands of the LORD their God and made for
themselves two idols cast in the shape of calves, and an Asherah pole. They
bowed down to all the starry hosts, and they worshiped Baal. 17 They
sacrificed their sons and daughters in [c] the fire. They practiced
divination and sorcery and sold themselves to do evil in the eyes of the
LORD, provoking him to anger.
?18 So the LORD was very angry with Israel and removed them from his
presence. Only the tribe of Judah was left, 19 and even Judah did not keep
the commands of the LORD their God. They followed the practices Israel had
introduced. 20 Therefore the LORD rejected all the people of Israel; he
afflicted them and gave them into the hands of plunderers, until he thrust
them from his presence.
?21 When he tore Israel away from the house of David, they made Jeroboam son
of Nebat their king. Jeroboam enticed Israel away from following the LORD and
caused them to commit a great sin. 22 The Israelites persisted in all the
sins of Jeroboam and did not turn away from them 23 until the LORD removed
them from his presence, as he had warned through all his servants the
prophets. So the people of Israel were taken from their homeland into exile
in Assyria, and they are still there.

Comments?
?
Lloyd Barr?
http://freewebs.com/lmbarre
?


     

------------------------------

Message: 17
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 15:26:04 -0800 (PST)
From: LM Barre <l_barre AT yahoo.com>
Subject: [b-hebrew] Dating the major Literary Complexes of the Hebrew
    Bible
To: Ancient Bible History <AncientBibleHistory AT yahoogroups.com>,
    b-Hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <683301.76595.qm AT web110006.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252

J is Solomonic, ending with the Succession Narrative in 1 Kings 2:46:
?
46 Then the king gave the order to Benaiah son of Jehoiada, and he went out
and struck Shimei down and killed him.
??????The kingdom was now firmly established in Solomon's hands..

E was written about 850 BCE and concludes with Elijah encounter with Yahweh
in the cave where Moses saw the back of Yahweh:
?
?11 The LORD said, "Go out and stand on the mountain in the presence of the
LORD, for the LORD is about to pass by."
??????Then a great and powerful wind tore the mountains apart and shattered
the rocks before the LORD, but the LORD was not in the wind. After the wind
there was an earthquake, but the LORD was not in the earthquake. 12 After the
earthquake came a fire, but the LORD was not in the fire. And after the fire
came a gentle whisper. 13 When Elijah heard it, he pulled his cloak over his
face and went out and stood at the mouth of the cave.
??????Then a voice said to him, "What are you doing here, Elijah?"
?14 He replied, "I have been very zealous for the LORD God Almighty. The
Israelites have rejected your covenant, broken down your altars, and put your
prophets to death with the sword. I am the only one left, and now they are
trying to kill me too."
?15 The LORD said to him, "Go back the way you came, and go to the Desert of
Damascus. When you get there, anoint Hazael king over Aram. 16 Also, anoint
Jehu son of Nimshi king over Israel, and anoint Elisha son of Shaphat from
Abel Meholah to succeed you as prophet. 17 Jehu will put to death any who
escape the sword of Hazael, and Elisha will put to death any who escape the
sword of Jehu. 18 Yet I reserve seven thousand in Israel?all whose knees have
not bowed down to Baal and all whose mouths have not kissed him."
?
The first edition of P was exilic upon the release of the Jews by King
Cyrus.? It was edited during the post-exilic era (P2).? It concludes with the
division of the tribes in the latter part of Joshua.
?
The Torah or Pentateuch was assembled by Ezra the Scribe during the
post-exilic era.
?
Comments?
?
Lloyd Barr?
http://freewebs.com/lmbarre
?


     

------------------------------

Message: 18
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 20:03:46 -0600
From: Harold Holmyard <hholmyard3 AT earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] woman
To: "b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <49865482.1040504 AT earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Doug ,
> Hi Harold , another great day of beautiful rain, here in Yeppoon we
> have had a great run of summer rain , boy would Vic' want some of that
> , ok Harold,  Hosea wrote a story about a couple whom it seems
> represent God and Israel with Gomer as Israel , and the story seems
> about a woman who knows no sexual boundaries , and she has three
> children , these children seem to be eras of time for Israel , is that
> possible ?

HH: I don't think so. All the children seem to be describing the
contemporary situation of Israel in Hosea's time. All the children of
promiscuity represent the contemporary promiscuous behavior of Israel,
and each child's name represents some fact about how God would treat
Israel or think about them very soon.

Hos 1:2  When the LORD first spoke to Hosea, He said this to him: Go and
marry a promiscuous wife and have children of promiscuity, for the whole
land has been promiscuous by abandoning the LORD. 3 So he went and
married Gomer daughter of Diblaim, and she conceived and bore him a son.
4  Then the LORD said to him: Name him Jezreel, for in a little while I
will avenge the bloodshed of Jezreel on the house of Jehu and put an end
to the kingdom of the house of Israel. 5 On that day I will break the
bow of Israel in the valley of Jezreel. 6  She conceived again and gave
birth to a daughter, and the LORD said to him: Name her No Compassion,
for I will no longer have compassion on the house of Israel. I will
certainly take them away. 7 But I will have compassion on the house of
Judah, and I will deliver them by the LORD their God. I will not deliver
them by bow, sword, or war, or by horses and cavalry. 8  After Gomer had
weaned No Compassion, she conceived and gave birth to a son. 9 Then the
LORD said: Name him Not My People, for you are not My people, and I will
not be your God. 1
> 
> Add to that ,
> 
> Is 49:14 speaks of Zion , here we agree is Israel , who is left to
> feel forsaken , but then is returned "aa a bride" , again linked to a
> woman and marrige
> 
> Is 50:1 speaks of a woman , who is to be put away for her because of
> her children transgressions
> 
> Is 54:1-5 has the same situation , a woman put away who has children ,
> and who returns in a bride situation.
> 
> Is 62:5 we have a similar situation where we begin with the subject
> Zion and Jerusalem , both I woud say have application , as you said,
> to "Washington" , they both represent the nation of Israel , and are
> returned as a bride , in this case it gets more interest by the groom
> being "her sons " .

HH: Here the word "marry" can also mean "possess, rule over." There is
wordplay. The sons will possess the land with the fervent attachment
that a young man has as he marries a young woman.
> 
> Is 66:6-10 has a mother with child , almost identical to Rev 12:1-3 ,
> I mean how can we say that a woman who bares a male child and then
> more children are different women, not connected .

HH: Yes, hey are connectetd. By verse 8 the Isaiah passage is talking, I
think, about the the glorious kingdom (see the end of chapter 65) by
verse. Most interpreters take Isa 66:7 of the same event, but it is at
least conceivable that it talks about the birth of the Lord JesusMessiah
like Rev 12:1-3. The OT prophecies say that there will be a tribulation
for Israel like mother bearing a child before the blessed kingdom comes,
but Isa 66:7 seems to say that there is no tribulation, seeming to
contradict Daniel 12:1-3. Yet the man child in verse 7, in contrast to
the sons of verse 8, might conceivably be the Messiah, whose first
coming preceded tribulation. There is a male child born (v. 7), and then
a nation and land is born with many sons (v. 8). Is this all the same
birth? It is conceivable, since the land was born all at once, in one
day, which could suggest it being without tribulation. Butt the end of
verse 8 suggests that when Zion travailed, she gave birth. This seems
different than verse 7, where the birth comes before pain came to the
mother. But the mother in Isaiah 66 is Zion, and thus ultimately Israel,
and the mother of the Messiah in Rev 12:1-3 is Israel.

> Jer 3:1-14 we have two "sisters" , Judah and Israel both are compared
> to women in sexual sin, both are married to God , rejected and then
> restored .

HH: Right.


> 
> Ezek 16 and 23  we have two women who represent Israel , both in sin ,
> both could be  the "Washington" principle .

HH: Really, in chapter 16, the central figure is Judah. There are
allegorically two sisters:

Ezek 16:46 Your older sister was Samaria, who lived with her daughters
to the north of you, and your younger sister was Sodom, who lived with
her daughters to the south of you.

HH: The two women in Ezekiel 23 are like the two women in Jere 3:1-14.
But you're right; the two Ezekiel texts both have the southern and
northern kingdoms as sisters
> 
> Then we have the story of Hosea that seems to cover the complete story
> of Israel forsaken for her sin and then restored as a bride.

HH: Right
> 
> Add to this is the oft used "metaphor" , allegory , simile style of
> writing of the "bride/city" being an application of people , as your
> "Washington" , when you look at that writing style and realise that
> the "bride" of Rev 21:10 is a city then maybe bells should ring to say
> that we need to learn a bit more about all the allegorical writings.

HH: You are astute to see that the image of Jerusalem as a bride should
not catch us by surprise.
> 
>  It kind of makes sense that maybe all these "parable" style writings
> are presenting a similar "application" to the same sort of "mystery"
> style the bride,  written of as a city.

HH: The figurative language is used a bit differently in these different
texts. Sometimes the woman is Jerusalem. Sometimes the woman is Judah.
Sometimes the woman represents both kingdoms. But the woman always has
some reference to Israel, as you suggest.
> 
> This is the message I am getting , I am thinking that all these
> parable/allegorical style pasages as I have mentioned above , do fit
> in with the bride city of Rev 21:10, I mean what is the purpose of
> writing these "scenarios" there must be a purpose, and it would be
> unlikely that all the Prophest were not lined up.  Then if you add
> "daughter of Zion" as another "allegorical" style of character then
> all the porphets , or at least the majority have written in this style.
> 
>  I am wondering have you done a study on this style of writing, and it
> message .

HH: No, I really have not. I have thought a good deal about the idea of
God as the husband, and Israel or the church (or God's people) as the
bride. But the main point is that God compares his relationship with his
people to that of a husband, which is a position of authority, but also
of intense love and some degree of equality.

Yours,
Harold Holmyard



------------------------------

Message: 19
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 20:11:59 -0600
From: Harold Holmyard <hholmyard3 AT earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] "daughter of Zion" [was: (bless? curse?) in
    the Book of Job]
To: "b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <4986566F.7080706 AT earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Doug,
>>> In Rom 9:24-27 Paul quotes Hosea 1:11 as to the gentile inclusion and
>>> which refers to the "sons of the living God" , is Paul , do you think
>>> , saying that the third child Lo-Ammi who represents these sons of the
>>> living God is the gentile inclusion. And who represents  the "My
>>> people  and Mercy is shown"  of Hos 1:1, could they be the "sons of
>>> the living God" and thus the church.
>>
>> HH: Paul is redirecting OT words that in their original context had a
>> different meaning. He is using them in a literary way. In Hosea the
>> words are talking about the northern kingdom of Israel:
>>
>> Hosa 1:6  She conceived again and gave birth to a daughter, and the LORD
>> said to him: Name her No Compassion, for I will no longer have
>> compassion on the house of Israel. I will certainly take them away. 7
>> But I will have compassion on the house of Judah, and I will deliver
>> them by the LORD their God. I will not deliver them by bow, sword, or
>> war, or by horses and cavalry. 8  After Gomer had weaned No Compassion,
>> she conceived and gave birth to a son. 9 Then the LORD said: Name him
>> Not My People, for you are not My people, and I will not be your God.
>> 10  Yet the number of the Israelites will be like the sand of the sea,
>> which cannot be measured or counted. And in the place where they were
>> told: You are not My people, they will be called: Sons of the living
>> God. 11 And the Judeans and the Israelites will be gathered together.
>> They will appoint for themselves a single ruler, and go up from the
>> land. For the day of Jezreel will be great.
>>
>> HH: Note that verse 11 distinguishes between the Judeans and the
>> Israelites. The Israelites are those in the northern kingdom. They will
>> not be a people because in 722 B.C. the northern kingdom came to an end
>> and the people were taken into captivity by the Assyrians, who
>> transported them to other nations, never to return to Israel. Hosea
>> prophesied in the last days of the northern kingdom, during Jeroboam's
>> reign (Hos 1:1), or some time within 793-753 B.C.
So could that mean we are descendants of the 10 tribes , or are you
saying there is no link , doug belot

HH: I am saying there is no link. Paul is using words written about one
situation to describe a different one to which the words apply. Those
who were not a people will become a people.

Yours,
Harold Holmyard



------------------------------

Message: 20
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 18:19:01 -0800
From: K Randolph <kwrandolph AT gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Bethsaida
To: b-hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID:
    <acd782170902011819j61909a3fh16c8d3182dd129a8 AT mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Yigal:
Possibly, we don't have a history to verify it.

The main reason for mentioning it is because the use of CYD for provisions
long predates any possible date for the founding of Bethsaida, so that by
the time that happened, provisions may have been the main idea behind the
name, hunting possibly not in the picture.

Karl W. Randolph.

On Sun, Feb 1, 2009 at 11:48 AM, Yigal Levin <leviny1 AT mail.biu.ac.il> wrote:

> Karl,
>
> Perhaps it went the other way: CYD first meant "hunting" (not as a sport
> but
> as a way of providing food), and then the noun Cayyid took on the general
> meaning of "provisions".
>
> Yigal Levin


------------------------------

Message: 21
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 13:57:31 +1100
From: George Athas <George.Athas AT moore.edu.au>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] A Famous Dtr1 text (2 Kings 17)
To: B-Hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <C5ACAC4B.238F%george.athas AT moore.edu.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Comment on what precisely?


Regards,

GEORGE ATHAS
Moore Theological College (Sydney, Australia)
www.moore.edu.au



------------------------------

Message: 22
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 19:03:18 -0800
From: K Randolph <kwrandolph AT gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Phonetic Values in the Hebrew Alphabet
To: B-Hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID:
    <acd782170902011903v55ff23b9r3ed9e601ddd4200 AT mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

George:

On Sun, Feb 1, 2009 at 1:31 PM, George Athas <George.Athas AT moore.edu.au>wrote:

> Hi Karl!
>
> It's an interesting question to see how the alphabet was adopted and
> adapted by different people groups. The methodology you are employing is to
> attach Greek values to the graphemes and read these back into the
> pronunciation of Hebrew and/or Phoenician. Now, you may well be right in
> some of your estimation, but we have no sure way of knowing.
>

True, we have no way of knowing, but I am basing it on the pattern that when
spelling is fluid, letter values, especially consonants, tend to remain
constant. But when spelling is frozen, as in Latin after the fall of Rome,
then letter values change.

Greek had fluid spelling until the present era, Hebrew had frozen (other
than materes lexionis) spelling from about 500 BC, so it is more likely that
the Greek preserved the original letter phonemes than did the Hebrew.

>
> What I can say is that your reasoning with the pronunciation of teth is
> almost certainly wrong. While the Greek grapheme theta was pronounced as a
> /th/ sound by the turn of the era (and indeed is pronounced that way in
> modern Greek), in Classical Greek it most probably was not pronounced that
> way. Both the letters theta and phi were probably not aspirated to produce
> the softer sound, but were probably plosive sounds. This would make
> Classical Greek theta sound very much like the technically correct
> pronunciation of Hebrew teth. Hebrew has no equivalent for a plosive /p/.
>

That's debatable. The only evidence I have been shown for this is the
equivalent of saying that we can tell American English pronunciation based
on the Katzenjammer Kids cartoons.

>
> Greek also had a couple of letters it adopted from the Semitic alphabet,
> but which dropped out of use: koppa (cf. Qoph) and digamma (a /w/ phoneme;
> cf. Waw).
>
> Another thing to be aware of in assigning phonetic values is the regional
> differences. Even today one can discern markedly different pronunciation
> schemes amongst Arabic speakers. As best as we can determine, a similar
> phenomenon prevailed throughout ancient history. The classic "shibboleth"
> story in Judges is the most obvious case in point. Considering how Ugaritic
> was probably pronounced, we must be prepared for various phonetic shifts.
>

Today most languages have frozen their spellings, hence there will be
variations in pronunciation of letters. But did that exist in ancient times?
Even in the U.S. that did not exist until about 170 years ago.

>
> Finally, we have no way of verifying who first came up with the alphabet.
> Your post implied it was the Hebrews (however we can define that term).
> General consensus goes for the Phoenicians. However, when it comes down to
> it, we just don't know who it was.
>

Agreed. If we take Tanakh at face value, then the Hebrews had it first. But
not everybody takes Tanakh at face value.

>
>
> Regards,
>
> GEORGE ATHAS
> Moore Theological College (Sydney, Australia)
> www.moore.edu.au
>

Karl W. Randolph.


------------------------------

Message: 23
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 09:01:50 +0200
From: Avi Wollman <avi.wollman AT gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] 1Q287 and the Tanakh at Deut. 32:43
To: b-hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID:
    <e292c2d90902012301y4b0d1a64ve74b53eebf39501e AT mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Dear B-Hebrew members.
One of the hardest things that I find when ever the DSS are quoted is that
its usually NOT QUOTED but translated, Please when ever possible give the
exact quotation in the original language of the manuscript and only then
give a interpretation or/and translation.

Thank you
Avi Wollman

On Sun, Feb 1, 2009 at 8:24 PM, Gary Hedrick <garyh AT cjfm.org> wrote:

> Interesting. And the Hebrew formulation benei elohim could be
> understood as angels anyway, based on the useage in Job.
>
> Gary Hedrick
>
> On Jan 31, 2009, at 10:04 PM, Yigal Levin <leviny1 AT mail.biu.ac.il>
> wrote:
>
> > Gary,
> >
> > The LXX text which I'm working with has both. The full verse is:
> > "Be glad,
> > O heavens, together with Him, and do obeisance to Him, all angels of
> > God; Be
> > glad O nations with His people, and grow in strength, O sons of God;
> > for the
> > blood of his sons He shall avenge, and he shall avenge and recompense
> > punishment to the enemies, and to the ones detesting him he shall
> > recompense, and the Lord shall clear out the land for His people".
> >
> > Yigal Levin
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> _______________________________________________
> b-hebrew mailing list
> b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
>



--
--------------------------------------------------------
Avi Wollman ??? ?????
Home: Where ever God whats
http://www.geulah.org.il
--------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

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To all members,

Let me reiterate that B-Hebrew is a forum for 'discussing' Biblical Hebrew
language and literature. It is a forum designed for interaction and
discussion based on the scholarly principles of logic and evidence.

It is NOT a forum which people should use as their personal column.
Interaction and collegiality is of the prime.


Regards,

GEORGE ATHAS
Moore Theological College (Sydney, Australia)
www.moore.edu.au



________________________________
From: LM Barre <l_barre AT yahoo.com>
Reply-To: <l_barre AT yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 07:42:07 +1100
To: B-Hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: [b-hebrew] A different generation of biblical scholarship

I simply wished to say that my particular brand of scholarship is of 1986
vintage, at which time I received my doctorate. We were asking the big
questions. Pentateuchal studies was divided into studies of J, E and P. We
were also working on the Deuteronomistic Historian and the Deuteronomic
school. In fact, there was intense interests in all the biblical
literature--wisdom literature, hymnic literature, post-exilic literature.
Methodology was discussed--form criticism, tradition history, source
criticism, rhetorical criticism and so on. In this sense, then, I am a
traditionalist who is out of step with what largely goes on here at b-Hebrew.
I do not understand what the task is here. Can someone speak to what is
going on here? It eludes me.


Lloyd Barré
http://freewebs.com/lmbarre




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