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  • From: Dirk Frulla <fiveacorns AT yahoo.com>
  • To: Rolf Furuli <furuli AT online.no>, b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Daniel and history
  • Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 13:23:00 -0800 (PST)



Dear Rolf,
 
Great to hear from you again!



RF: In the book of Daniel we find one saying that clearly is at odds with
the universally accepted history, and that is chapter 9, verse 2. In
this verse we learn that in the beginning of the Persian kingdom
Daniel read about the 70 years when Jerusalem would be desolate. The
same information is found in 2 Chronicles 36:21 where it is said that
Jerusalem was a desolate waste for a full 70 years. Using the rules
of lexical semantics, grammar, and syntax I am not able to  see any
other meaning in the two passages than that Jerusalem was a desolate
waste for a full 70 years. Yet, the history leaves only 49 of 50
years for Jerusalem's desolate condition (and some say Jerusalem
never was desolate). Is Daniel and the Chronicler wrong?

DF: In our last dicussion, you said something similar (that you see no other
meaning in these verses), siding with the NIV's translation of the verse: "in
the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, understood from the Scriptures,
according to the word of the LORD given to Jeremiah the prophet, that the
desolation of Jerusalem would last seventy years." In May of 2008, I posted a
dissection of this verse from a qualified Hebraist that sided with the NASB's
rendering - mainly that Daniel 9:2 draws attention to the end of the
desolations of Jerusalem as a consequence of the seventy years of Jeremiah
ending. This is very different than equating the desolations with the seventy
years. I am reposting the dissection here in hopes that if it is incorrect,
you will be kind enough to tell me why so that I may re-approach the cited
Hebraist with the errors. I am asking you specifically because she was
reacting to your book (mentioned elsewhere in your post), pages 76
and 77. Hence the "RF" refers to you. However, if anyone else would like to
respond to it (correct or incorrect), it would be appreciated.

*** START QUOTE from Kristen Jørgensen ***************

...the inclusion of the personal pronoun ‘ani  (‘I’) showing that the subject
is emphatic - Daniel had checked matters for himself in ‘the Scriptures’. He
also omits the quite important adverbial bassepârim (‘in the Scriptures’)
which shows that the aging Daniel did not waste his time but checked the
inspired Scriptures at once when the time was up. The definition of the
direct object (DO) is somewhat incorrect, too: first come the core words
mishpar hashânim  (‘number of years’), followed  by an embedded relative
clause,‘asher hâyâh debhar-YHWH ‘el-Yirmiyâh-hanâbhî  (‘which gave word of
Yahweh to Jeremiah the prophet’). Finally, the last part of the DO is the
clause lemall’ôt lechorebhôt Yerûshalâyim shibhim shanâh, in which lemall’ôt
is the infinitive, le being the infinitive marker and the verb mal’e (‘to
fill, fulfill, complete’) is in the timeless and intensive piel conjugation
(‘in order to
fully complete’), while lechorebhôt Yerûshâlayim is a prepositional phrase
functioning as an adverbial (‘in regard to/for Jerusalem’s desolations’), and
lastly, shibhim shanâh, (‘seventy years’) is the direct object. RF’s analysis
of the word lemall’ôt, i.e., that ‘the preposition plus infinitive serves as
a temporal accusative whose adjunct is 70 years’, for which he refers to
Ronald J. Williams’ Hebrew Syntax An Outline (2nd ed. Toronto U.P. 1976, p.
48, § 268) for proof, is in error; indeed, if he had studied the paragraph
referred to and the references from it in detail he would have noted that le
does not function in that way except when directly connected with a term
expressing some time element, as in Williams’ examples, e.g. 2 Chronicles
11:17, leshanim shalosh (‘for three years’).

Thus, the prepositional phrase lechorebhôt Yerûshalâyim, ‘for desolations of
Jerusalem’ functions as an adverbial indicating the purpose intended, namely
to fix the absolute end of the desolations of Jerusalem, i.e., when the 70
years ‘for Babylon’ were to end. As for RF’s comparison with a ‘simpler
clause’, it is really of no value at all, and that goes for his paraphrase,
too. The framed statement in bold-faced type is rather irrelevant: true,
there is no need to take the word chorebhôt  (fem. plur., construct) to
signify several desolations of Jerusalem, but neither is it logical to apply
it to ‘the many ruins of the city’, because in Hebrew the so-called plural
form may also signify fulness, intensity, magnitude, extension and similar
concepts, according to the context, and here it is most likely used to show
that the full and complete desolation of Jerusalem would end exactly at the
time designated by Jehovah himself, as made
known through his prophet Jeremiah. (Cf. Johs. Pedersen, Hebræisk Grammatik,
Copenhagen 1926, pages 197, 198, § 115) However, we ought to note that RF
correctly connects the complete desolation of Jerusalem with the final
conquest by the Chaldeans (in 587 BC, not 607), but he errs again when he
stubbornly sticks to a ‘period of 70 years’ for the Jewish exile, even though
he is not able to present any real evidence, simply because there is none.
Let us just see how NASB renders Daniel 9:2:

in the first year of his reign I, Daniel, observed in the books the number of
the years which was revealed as the word of the LORD to Jeremiah the peophet
for the completion of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years. –
Cf. also RV, ASV, RSV, AAT, Moffatt, Amplified, Rotherham.
*** END QUOTE ***************

Again, the NIV and NASB portray a slightly different meaning. I am assuming
that this different meaning comes from the fact that you see Daniel 9:2 as
equating the seventy years with the desolation, while the Hebraist above (and
the translators of the NASB), see it a bit differently.

Are there errors in the above dissection? In light of this, why do feel your
interpretation of Daniel 9:2 is so clear?

Also, I know you mentioned 2 Chronicles 36:21 as well. However, I have the
same issue with that scripture. Mainly, it seems to be saying that the land
enjoyed sabbath rest until the 70 years were completed. This is different
than saying the land enjoyed 70 years of sabbath rests. The land could have
enjoyed sabbath from 587 BC until the Jews returned to Jerusalem and it would
contradict the scripture. Again, because the end of the sabbath rest is
portrayed as a consequence to the end of the 70 years of Jeremiah. Jeremiah
25 and 29 seem to indicate it was 70 years of "servitude" of "these nations"
(plural), servitude to Babylon (29:10 - "for Babylon"). Since Daniel 9:2 and
2 Chronicles 36:21 mention specifically Jeremiah, it seems to me more
plausable (if you are going to insist on Biblical agreement) that Daniel and
2 Chronicles are not stating the desolation would last 70 years.

 

RF: I have used this example to illustrate that when we find information
in the book of Daniel or in other books of the Tanakh that are
believed to be at odds with our accepted knowledge of history, we
both need to study the Hebrew text carefully, in order to ascertain
what it really says; and we also need to ask whether the accepted
view of history is reliable. Only after a careful study of both, we
can draw balanced conclusions.


DF: Agreed. I have some issues with your comments on VAT 4956 (mainly that
your book finds one eclipse from VAT4956 in the year 588, but it requires the
start of the Babylonian new year in May). We can explore these, if permitted
on this list. However, I await your comments on the Hebrew grammar above.


Thank you,
Dirk Frulla
New York, USA



>From l_barre AT yahoo.com Fri Jan 30 16:23:32 2009
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From: LM Barre <l_barre AT yahoo.com>
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Subject: [b-hebrew] P's Kerygma
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The great categories behind P's composition is that of Creation and Chaos.  P
himself drew on the Memphite Theology with the concept of creation by divine
fiat.  In P's creation story, Chaos pre-exists eternally (Gen 1:2).  P is
also polytheistic in the sense that all gods act together as one..  This is
why the plural noun with a singular verb; "In the beginning, gods created the
heavens and the earth."
 
Chaos takes the form of tohu wa bohu, that is without form and emptiness.  In
days 1-3, gods conquer formlessness and then in days 4-6 overcome emptiness. 
Day 1 corresponds to day 4, 2 to 5 and 3 to 6.  Thus gods conquer chaos with
6 days of activity and rest upon the 7th.
 
However, chaos reasserts itself in the flood story in the form of the flood.. 
I wrote an article for JSOT some time ago that shows the chronology of the
flood story and demarcates J from P.  According to it, gods recreate the
universe out of chaos' flood.
 
 13 By the first day of the first month of Noah's six hundred and first year,
the water had dried up from the earth.
 
This is followed by P's covenant with Noah not to let chaos overcome the
earth again.
 
In my view, P was written soon after Cyrus' edict to release the Jews.  This
would account for it extreme optimism (contra Cross).  As such, it is very
much like 2 Isaiah.


 
Lloyd Barré
the unknown god
http://freewebs.com/lmbarre
 



>From l_barre AT yahoo.com Fri Jan 30 16:32:27 2009
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Subject: [b-hebrew] The Eden Narrative
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The Eden narrative was written by the wisdom tradition as a warning to young
teens not to have sex just because they can.  It is an allegory.  The erect
serpent stands for the erect penis of Adam.  When Eve talks to the serpent,
she is actually "peter-gazing."  The tree of the knowledge of good and bad is
adult sexual consciousness.  Because they had sex, they lost their innocence
and knew that they were naked.  As a result, Eve became pregnant and had to
experience the pain of childbirth while Adam lost his years of teen happiness
and had to work hard to support his family.  So we have an allegory from
Israel's wisdom tradition which like Proverbs 1-9, teaches youngsters about
life.  This allegory actually has nothing to do with original sin as Paul
thought (Romans 5).  There is no such thing as sin, or shall we say, no
teaching of it in the Eden Narrative.


 
Lloyd Barré
the unknown god
http://freewebs.com/lmbarre
 



>From l_barre AT yahoo.com Fri Jan 30 16:41:52 2009
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Subject: [b-hebrew] El is the god of Israel
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For those of you who did not read my essay, let me say here that El and
Yahweh are different gods who have been syncretized over time.  As long as
Israel was Isra-el, El was the god of Israel, not Yahweh.  He was the god of
Judah.  True, Yahweh did penetrate the north because of Deborah, but El
remained the high god of Israel.  I do not have the reference now, but a coin
in the 8th(?) was found in northern Israel in which El was represented as the
high god.  So we have the Elohistic Psalter which preserves pure Elohim
psalms along with edited ones where Yahweh is identified with El(ohim).  This
edition would have been made as a result of the northern refugees coming to
Judah after the fall of Samaria.  All of this is descussed in my book, A
Brilliant Deceit and Other Essays.

 
Lloyd Barré
the unknown god
http://freewebs.com/lmbarre
 



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The name of God embedded in E should be translated, "I am becoming what I am
becoming."  This comes from Moses the Egyptian Pharoah.  It is Kheperaism,
the Egyptian god of becoming.

 
Lloyd Barré
the unknown god
http://freewebs.com/lmbarre
 



>From atdgz AT hotmail.com Fri Jan 30 16:57:00 2009
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] The Eden Narrative
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To be honest a lot may be said about this posting.

And not in the most complimentary manner...

Bringing into question the underlying assumptions and the hypothetical nature
of the claim is the least judgmental formulation I can think about... Let
alone evaluating the claim regarding the alleged "target market"-- "young
Teens"... Assuming also that they would see through the alleged INTENDED
allegory and adopt it and apply the conclusions... Let alone have access to
it...

Best is to simply question once again: does such stuff have a lot or anything
to do with biblical Hebrew (language) issues?...

Moderators?

Gad Za"k

> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 13:32:19 -0800
> From: l_barre AT yahoo.com
> To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: [b-hebrew] The Eden Narrative
>
> The Eden narrative was written by the wisdom tradition as a warning to
> young teens not to have sex just because they can. It is an allegory. The
> erect serpent stands for the erect penis of Adam. When Eve talks to the
> serpent, she is actually "peter-gazing." The tree of the knowledge of good
> and bad is adult sexual consciousness. Because they had sex, they lost
> their innocence and knew that they were naked. As a result, Eve became
> pregnant and had to experience the pain of childbirth while Adam lost his
> years of teen happiness and had to work hard to support his family. So we
> have an allegory from Israel's wisdom tradition which like Proverbs 1-9,
> teaches youngsters about life. This allegory actually has nothing to do
> with original sin as Paul thought (Romans 5). There is no such thing as
> sin, or shall we say, no teaching of it in the Eden Narrative.
>
>
>
> Lloyd Barré
> the unknown god
> http://freewebs.com/lmbarre
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> b-hebrew mailing list
> b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew

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