Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Dirk Frulla <fiveacorns AT yahoo.com>]

Dear Rolf, 
 
Great to hear from you again!



RF: In the book of Daniel we find one saying that clearly is at odds with 
the universally accepted history, and that is chapter 9, verse 2. In 
this verse we learn that in the beginning of the Persian kingdom 
Daniel read about the 70 years when Jerusalem would be desolate. The 
same information is found in 2 Chronicles 36:21 where it is said that 
Jerusalem was a desolate waste for a full 70 years. Using the rules 
of lexical semantics, grammar, and syntax I am not able to  see any 
other meaning in the two passages than that Jerusalem was a desolate 
waste for a full 70 years. Yet, the history leaves only 49 of 50 
years for Jerusalem's desolate condition (and some say Jerusalem 
never was desolate). Is Daniel and the Chronicler wrong?

DF: In our last dicussion, you said something similar (that you see no other 
meaning in these verses), siding with the NIV's translation of the verse: "in 
the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, understood from the Scriptures, 
according to the word of the LORD given to Jeremiah the prophet, that the 
desolation of Jerusalem would last seventy years." In May of 2008, I posted a 
dissection of this verse from a qualified Hebraist that sided with the NASB's 
rendering - mainly that Daniel 9:2 draws attention to the end of the 
desolations of Jerusalem as a consequence of the seventy years of Jeremiah 
ending. This is very different than equating the desolations with the seventy 
years. I am reposting the dissection here in hopes that if it is incorrect, 
you will be kind enough to tell me why so that I may re-approach the cited 
Hebraist with the errors. I am asking you specifically because she was 
reacting to your book (mentioned elsewhere in your post), pages 76
 and 77. Hence the "RF" refers to you. However, if anyone else would like to 
respond to it (correct or incorrect), it would be appreciated.

*** START QUOTE from Kristen Jørgensen ***************

...the inclusion of the personal pronoun ‘ani  (‘I’) showing that the subject 
is emphatic - Daniel had checked matters for himself in ‘the Scriptures’. He 
also omits the quite important adverbial bassepârim (‘in the Scriptures’) 
which shows that the aging Daniel did not waste his time but checked the 
inspired Scriptures at once when the time was up. The definition of the 
direct object (DO) is somewhat incorrect, too: first come the core words 
mishpar hashânim  (‘number of years’), followed  by an embedded relative 
clause,‘asher hâyâh debhar-YHWH ‘el-Yirmiyâh-hanâbhî  (‘which gave word of 
Yahweh to Jeremiah the prophet’). Finally, the last part of the DO is the 
clause lemall’ôt lechorebhôt Yerûshalâyim shibhim shanâh, in which lemall’ôt 
is the infinitive, le being the infinitive marker and the verb mal’e (‘to 
fill, fulfill, complete’) is in the timeless and intensive piel conjugation 
(‘in order to
 fully complete’), while lechorebhôt Yerûshâlayim is a prepositional phrase 
functioning as an adverbial (‘in regard to/for Jerusalem’s desolations’), and 
lastly, shibhim shanâh, (‘seventy years’) is the direct object. RF’s analysis 
of the word lemall’ôt, i.e., that ‘the preposition plus infinitive serves as 
a temporal accusative whose adjunct is 70 years’, for which he refers to 
Ronald J. Williams’ Hebrew Syntax An Outline (2nd ed. Toronto U.P. 1976, p. 
48, § 268) for proof, is in error; indeed, if he had studied the paragraph 
referred to and the references from it in detail he would have noted that le 
does not function in that way except when directly connected with a term 
expressing some time element, as in Williams’ examples, e.g. 2 Chronicles 
11:17, leshanim shalosh (‘for three years’).

Thus, the prepositional phrase lechorebhôt Yerûshalâyim, ‘for desolations of 
Jerusalem’ functions as an adverbial indicating the purpose intended, namely 
to fix the absolute end of the desolations of Jerusalem, i.e., when the 70 
years ‘for Babylon’ were to end. As for RF’s comparison with a ‘simpler 
clause’, it is really of no value at all, and that goes for his paraphrase, 
too. The framed statement in bold-faced type is rather irrelevant: true, 
there is no need to take the word chorebhôt  (fem. plur., construct) to 
signify several desolations of Jerusalem, but neither is it logical to apply 
it to ‘the many ruins of the city’, because in Hebrew the so-called plural 
form may also signify fulness, intensity, magnitude, extension and similar 
concepts, according to the context, and here it is most likely used to show 
that the full and complete desolation of Jerusalem would end exactly at the 
time designated by Jehovah himself, as made
 known through his prophet Jeremiah. (Cf. Johs. Pedersen, Hebræisk Grammatik, 
Copenhagen 1926, pages 197, 198, § 115) However, we ought to note that RF 
correctly connects the complete desolation of Jerusalem with the final 
conquest by the Chaldeans (in 587 BC, not 607), but he errs again when he 
stubbornly sticks to a ‘period of 70 years’ for the Jewish exile, even though 
he is not able to present any real evidence, simply because there is none. 
Let us just see how NASB renders Daniel 9:2:

in the first year of his reign I, Daniel, observed in the books the number of 
the years which was revealed as the word of the LORD to Jeremiah the peophet 
for the completion of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years. – 
Cf. also RV, ASV, RSV, AAT, Moffatt, Amplified, Rotherham.
*** END QUOTE *************** 

Again, the NIV and NASB portray a slightly different meaning. I am assuming 
that this different meaning comes from the fact that you see Daniel 9:2 as 
equating the seventy years with the desolation, while the Hebraist above (and 
the translators of the NASB), see it a bit differently. 

Are there errors in the above dissection? In light of this, why do feel your 
interpretation of Daniel 9:2 is so clear?

Also, I know you mentioned 2 Chronicles 36:21 as well. However, I have the 
same issue with that scripture. Mainly, it seems to be saying that the land 
enjoyed sabbath rest until the 70 years were completed. This is different 
than saying the land enjoyed 70 years of sabbath rests. The land could have 
enjoyed sabbath from 587 BC until the Jews returned to Jerusalem and it would 
contradict the scripture. Again, because the end of the sabbath rest is 
portrayed as a consequence to the end of the 70 years of Jeremiah. Jeremiah 
25 and 29 seem to indicate it was 70 years of "servitude" of "these nations" 
(plural), servitude to Babylon (29:10 - "for Babylon"). Since Daniel 9:2 and 
2 Chronicles 36:21 mention specifically Jeremiah, it seems to me more 
plausable (if you are going to insist on Biblical agreement) that Daniel and 
2 Chronicles are not stating the desolation would last 70 years.

 

RF: I have used this example to illustrate that when we find information 
in the book of Daniel or in other books of the Tanakh that are 
believed to be at odds with our accepted knowledge of history, we 
both need to study the Hebrew text carefully, in order to ascertain 
what it really says; and we also need to ask whether the accepted 
view of history is reliable. Only after a careful study of both, we 
can draw balanced conclusions.


DF: Agreed. I have some issues with your comments on VAT 4956 (mainly that 
your book finds one eclipse from VAT4956 in the year 588, but it requires the 
start of the Babylonian new year in May). We can explore these, if permitted 
on this list. However, I await your comments on the Hebrew grammar above.


Thank you,
Dirk Frulla
New York, USA



>From l_barre AT yahoo.com  Fri Jan 30 16:23:32 2009
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Subject: [b-hebrew] P's Kerygma
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The great categories behind P's composition is that of Creation and Chaos.  P 
himself drew on the Memphite Theology with the concept of creation by divine 
fiat.  In P's creation story, Chaos pre-exists eternally (Gen 1:2).  P is 
also polytheistic in the sense that all gods act together as one..  This is 
why the plural noun with a singular verb; "In the beginning, gods created the 
heavens and the earth."
 
Chaos takes the form of tohu wa bohu, that is without form and emptiness.  In 
days 1-3, gods conquer formlessness and then in days 4-6 overcome emptiness.  
Day 1 corresponds to day 4, 2 to 5 and 3 to 6.  Thus gods conquer chaos with 
6 days of activity and rest upon the 7th.
 
However, chaos reasserts itself in the flood story in the form of the flood.. 
 I wrote an article for JSOT some time ago that shows the chronology of the 
flood story and demarcates J from P.  According to it, gods recreate the 
universe out of chaos' flood.
 
 13 By the first day of the first month of Noah's six hundred and first year, 
the water had dried up from the earth.
 
This is followed by P's covenant with Noah not to let chaos overcome the 
earth again.
 
In my view, P was written soon after Cyrus' edict to release the Jews.  This 
would account for it extreme optimism (contra Cross).  As such, it is very 
much like 2 Isaiah.


 
Lloyd Barré
the unknown god
http://freewebs.com/lmbarre
 



>From l_barre AT yahoo.com  Fri Jan 30 16:32:27 2009
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Subject: [b-hebrew] The Eden Narrative
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The Eden narrative was written by the wisdom tradition as a warning to young 
teens not to have sex just because they can.  It is an allegory.  The erect 
serpent stands for the erect penis of Adam.  When Eve talks to the serpent, 
she is actually "peter-gazing."  The tree of the knowledge of good and bad is 
adult sexual consciousness.  Because they had sex, they lost their innocence 
and knew that they were naked.  As a result, Eve became pregnant and had to 
experience the pain of childbirth while Adam lost his years of teen happiness 
and had to work hard to support his family.  So we have an allegory from 
Israel's wisdom tradition which like Proverbs 1-9, teaches youngsters about 
life.  This allegory actually has nothing to do with original sin as Paul 
thought (Romans 5).  There is no such thing as sin, or shall we say, no 
teaching of it in the Eden Narrative.


 
Lloyd Barré
the unknown god
http://freewebs.com/lmbarre
 



>From l_barre AT yahoo.com  Fri Jan 30 16:41:52 2009
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Subject: [b-hebrew] El is the god of Israel
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For those of you who did not read my essay, let me say here that El and 
Yahweh are different gods who have been syncretized over time.  As long as 
Israel was Isra-el, El was the god of Israel, not Yahweh.  He was the god of 
Judah.  True, Yahweh did penetrate the north because of Deborah, but El 
remained the high god of Israel.  I do not have the reference now, but a coin 
in the 8th(?) was found in northern Israel in which El was represented as the 
high god.  So we have the Elohistic Psalter which preserves pure Elohim 
psalms along with edited ones where Yahweh is identified with El(ohim).  This 
edition would have been made as a result of the northern refugees coming to 
Judah after the fall of Samaria.  All of this is descussed in my book, A 
Brilliant Deceit and Other Essays.

 
Lloyd Barré
the unknown god
http://freewebs.com/lmbarre
 



>From l_barre AT yahoo.com  Fri Jan 30 16:55:06 2009
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The name of God embedded in E should be translated, "I am becoming what I am 
becoming."  This comes from Moses the Egyptian Pharoah.  It is Kheperaism, 
the Egyptian god of becoming.

 
Lloyd Barré
the unknown god
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>From atdgz AT hotmail.com  Fri Jan 30 16:57:00 2009
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] The Eden Narrative
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To be honest a lot may be said about this posting.

And not in the most  complimentary manner...

Bringing into question the underlying assumptions and the hypothetical nature 
of the claim is the least judgmental formulation I can think about... Let 
alone evaluating the claim regarding the alleged "target market"--  "young 
Teens"... Assuming also that they would see through the alleged INTENDED 
allegory and adopt it and apply the conclusions... Let alone have access to 
it...

Best is to simply question once again: does such stuff have a lot or anything 
to do with biblical Hebrew (language) issues?...

Moderators?

Gad Za"k

> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 13:32:19 -0800
> From: l_barre AT yahoo.com
> To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: [b-hebrew] The Eden Narrative
> 
> The Eden narrative was written by the wisdom tradition as a warning to 
> young teens not to have sex just because they can.  It is an allegory.  The 
> erect serpent stands for the erect penis of Adam.  When Eve talks to the 
> serpent, she is actually "peter-gazing."  The tree of the knowledge of good 
> and bad is adult sexual consciousness.  Because they had sex, they lost 
> their innocence and knew that they were naked.  As a result, Eve became 
> pregnant and had to experience the pain of childbirth while Adam lost his 
> years of teen happiness and had to work hard to support his family.  So we 
> have an allegory from Israel's wisdom tradition which like Proverbs 1-9, 
> teaches youngsters about life.  This allegory actually has nothing to do 
> with original sin as Paul thought (Romans 5).  There is no such thing as 
> sin, or shall we say, no teaching of it in the Eden Narrative.
> 
> 
>  
> Lloyd Barré
> the unknown god
> http://freewebs.com/lmbarre
>  
> 
> 
>       
> _______________________________________________
> b-hebrew mailing list
> b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew

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