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  • From: davidfentonism AT aim.com
  • To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: [b-hebrew] Hebrew language and thought forms
  • Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 17:02:25 -0500


Yes, Peter, I agree with your points here in the main. But, relative to the
biblical text we are always discusing a fixed period of time (when the texts
were written). I am at a tremendous disadvantage here as a
non-Hebrew/non-Greek speaker. Notwithstanding, "daughter of Zion" and other
idioms don't have to be live today to convey their contextual meaning(s).

-----Original Message-----
From: peter AT qaya.org


On 20/11/2006 01:38, davidfentonism AT aim.com wrote:
> I think the notion that thought bears no direct relationship to language
> is inaccurate. Hebrew thoughtforms are directly linked to its language
> units. This is not always the case with greek because of its propensity
> for abstractions. However, in Hebrew, thoughtforms/language is tied to
> instances or things existing in reality (e.g., the idea of stiffneckedness
> like an ox).
> > I will try to stick to matters of Hebrew language in replying here, and
> > avoid being distracted into comparative philosophy.

I agree that "the notion that thought bears NO direct relationship to
language is inaccurate", with the emphasis which I have added. But the
strength and directness of that relationship has often been greatly
overstated.

Of course all languages, including Greek, use words derived from metaphors
like "stiff-necked". But at this point we need to consider in what sense this
kind of metaphorical language "is tied to instances or things existing in
reality". In general this kind of language starts with metaphors or poetic
imagery, and at that point there is a real tie to real things. An example of
this, similar to your "stiff-necked" one, might be Psalm 32:9. But these
kinds of metaphors can and do become fixed expressions or idioms, dead
metaphors, which then lose their tie to real things. Thus in English at least
people today can speak of unbridled passions without even knowing what a
literal bridle is. There are similar idioms in English based on obsolete
items and customs which are understood literally only by specialists, but are
in everyday use as idioms. And the same is true in every language.

In biblical Hebrew, we don't always know which metaphors are alive and which
are dead, but it is highly improbable that every metaphor is fully alive and
so "tied to instances or things existing in reality" as you suggest.
Certainly there are so many idioms with "son of" and "daughter of" that
expressions like "daughter of Zion" cannot be taken as live metaphors.
Another clear example of a probably dead metaphors is the use of 'APPAYIM and
HARON 'AP for "anger". Now this clearly started at some stage as a metaphor,
snorting from the nose representing anger. But over centuries, probably,
these words simply became normal ways of talking about "anger". It would be
quite wrong to imply from the use of these words that Hebrew thinking about
anger was tied to the existence of or conscious thinking about noses.

-- Peter Kirk
E-mail: peter AT qaya.org
Blog: http://speakertruth.blogspot.com/
Website: http://www.qaya.org/

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