Biblical Hebrew Forum

["Read, James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>]

Thank you.

You can equally observe that in the same passage yah's name is intrinsically 
linked to 
the expression 'the first and the last'. There is no doubt that this phrase 
is referring 
to the fact that Yah is eternal both in terms of past and future. Before him 
there was 
nothing/noone and there will be no successor to him as he will never die.

The major problem with the translation of ehyeh asher ehyeh is the common 
supposition that 
one word should be translated with one word. And thus the debate has become 
'I am who I am' 
vs' 'I will be what I will be'. However, the translators of the LXX evidently 
did not feel 
so bound to such one to one translation techniques. They tried to capture the 
essence of 
the phrase by translating as EYO EIMI HO WN = I'm eternal/immortal.

Interestingly exo 3:16 continues 'You go, and you must gather the older men 
of Israel, and you must say to them, ‘Jehovah the God of YOUR forefathers has 
appeared to me'(NWT) and so it is quite 
possible that Yah described himself and then ordered Moshe to go and say that 
his name 
was YHWHand not EHYEH ASHER EHYEH.


-----Original Message-----
From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of Michael Abernathy
Sent: Mon 9/12/2005 6:54 PM
To: Biblical Hebrew
Subject: [b-hebrew] Ex3:14
 
Vadim wrote ,"Whether a translation asnwers a particular question is 
irrelevant, though

one can prefer "I am" to "I will be" only on theological grounds."

I have to disagree. It does matter whether or not a translation fits the 
context it is found in. In this case, God spoke in response to a question.
An answer does seem reasonable.

Please explain what theological prejudice Joseph Baumgarten held when he 
wrote his article in the 1992 edition of the Jewish Quarterly Review. He
argued that ani hu is primarily used in the Hebrew Bible in statements 
made by Yahweh.

The Hebrew Bible often uses ani hu in a way that appears to be synonymous 
with YHWH.
 DT 32:39 "See now that I myself am He!
    There is no god besides me.
  I put to death and I bring to life,
    I have wounded and I will heal,
    and no one can deliver out of my hand.
  ISA 41:4 Who has done this and carried it through,
    calling forth the generations from the beginning?
  I, the LORD--with the first of them
    and with the last--I am he."
 ISA 43:10 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD,
    "and my servant whom I have chosen,
  so that you may know and believe me
    and understand that I am he.
  Before me no god was formed,
    nor will there be one after me.
   ISA 43:13 Yes, and from ancient days I am he.
  No one can deliver out of my hand.
    When I act, who can reverse it?"

  ISA 46:4 Even to your old age and gray hairs
    I am he, I am he who will sustain you.
  I have made you and I will carry you;
    I will sustain you and I will rescue you.
  ISA 48:12 "Listen to me, O Jacob,
    Israel, whom I have called: 
  I am he;
    I am the first and I am the last.
  ISA 52:6 Therefore my people will know my name;
    therefore in that day they will know
  that it is I who foretold it.
    Yes, it is I."

This suggests to me that "I am" is a reasonable way to translate the divine 
name.
There is even some evidence from the Egyptian language that suggests the 
translation "I am."
Johannes De Moor stated, "the enigmatic, `I am who I am'.  For centuries 
people have puzzled over the problem of what that could mean. The solution 
would seem to have been found now in an Egyptian religious text from the New 
Kingdom.  Here the god Re says exactly the same thing, `I am who I am' (iw. 
i-m.i).  [268] From the context it appears that the meaning of this 
declaration is that the god Re will remain himself, in the sense that in the 
present time and in the future he will continue to act precisely as he had 
done in the past."

I would like for those better schooled in Hebrew to clarify one thing about 
the use of the imperfect. M. H. Segal's Grammar of Mishnaic Hebrew states 
that "The imperf. describes a single act or event which has not yet taken 
place." When the imperfect is used for the future tense in Biblical Hebrew 
does it refer to a single event as opposed to a continual state? If that is 
the case, I cannot see how one would translate God's name as "I will be."
Sincerely,
Michael Abernathy

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Thread-Topic: [b-hebrew] Ex 33 & 34 - Glory & Face
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From: "Read, James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>
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What I find absurd is that we all agree that Moshe could not look at Yah's 
face and
yet not so long ago we were debating wether Abraham saw an angel or actually 
saw 
Yah himself.

Several points are interesting here:

18  At this he said: “Cause me to see, please, your glory.” 19  But he said: 
“I myself shall cause all my goodness to pass before your face, and I will 
declare the name of Jehovah before you

1)Moshe requests to see Yah's glory.
2)Yah equates his glory to his 'goodness' and also to the declaration of his 
name.

 21And Jehovah said further: “Here is a place with me, and you must station 
yourself upon the rock. 22  And it has to occur that while my glory is 
passing by I must place you in a hole in the rock, and I must put my palm 
over you as a screen until I have passed by

3)The metaphorical palm blocks Moshe's vision until *Yah* has passed by *NOT* 
his glory
4)Yah's name is declared and his goodness (i.e. his glory) is clearly 
defined, as follows:

 And Jehovah proceeded to come down in the cloud and station himself with him 
there and declare the name of Jehovah. 6  And Jehovah went passing by before 
his face and declaring: “Jehovah, Jehovah, a God merciful and gracious, slow 
to anger and abundant in loving-kindness and truth, 7  preserving 
loving-kindness for thousands, pardoning error and transgression and sin, but 
by no means will he give exemption from punishment, bringing punishment for 
the error of fathers upon sons and upon grandsons, upon the third generation 
and upon the fourth generation.”

In conclusion:

Moshe requested what was not humanly possible, to see Yah himself. However, 
Yah shows himself in a far 
superior way than as in a physical demonstration, i.e.by revealing his perona 
by virtue of his godly 
qualities:

Jehovah, Jehovah, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abundant in 
loving-kindness and truth, 7  preserving loving-kindness for thousands, 
pardoning error and transgression and sin, but by no means will he give 
exemption from punishment, bringing punishment for the error of fathers upon 
sons and upon grandsons, upon the third generation and upon the fourth 
generation.”

Interstingly, Jesus apostles requested to see the Father and he replied that 
watching his pattern was 
the way to see the Father. Evidently because to see Yah means to understand 
his personality as opposed 
to seeing his physical form.

Compare Hebrews 11:27:

By faith he left Egypt, but not fearing the anger of the king, for he 
continued steadfast as seeing the One who is invisible

Notice the reference to Yah being invisible, yet paradoxically Moshe saw him. 
How? In a spiritual sense, 
by getting to know him on a personal level and becoming his close friend.

ANTHROPOMORPHISMS

As has been demonstrated,it is widely understood by many that physical 
references to Yah can be 
understood as a mechanism of describiing Yah while working within the 
limitations of a language 
which is physically orientated, i.e. they are just metaphors.
Following this line of reasoning it is possible to understand that the 
references to Yah's palm 
and his back are metaphorical just as the reference tohis 'finger' which 
wrote the ten commandments.

Yah's blocking Moshe's vision with his palm can be understood as Yah using 
his power to block Moshe's 
vision and Yah's 'back' can be understood as the aftereffects of his 'passing 
by' e.g. When you see a 
bright light for a few seconds which suddenly dissappears,you continue to see 
its aftereffects in the 
form a glow in your eyes (caused by temporarily burnt retinas). I don't know 
if that was followable or 
not. I do garble a bit sometimes.

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I wrote:-

>>If my memory serves me correctly (I don't have a Hebrew text at
>>work) another is Gen 16:2 where Sarah is wanting a son through Hagar,
>>yet the text does not explicitly say so. That meaning comes from
>>understanding the word play, which I recall as depending on a single
>>word. In one sense it means to be built up, but it also means Sarai
>>wants a son through Hagar.

Harold Holmyard responded:-

>HH: Why do you think the text does not say so? It seems perfectly
>explicit.

I checked three tranlation-commentaries last night. These are their
respective comments:-

Speiser, Comment: ``...it is an obvious word play on ben `son' alluding to
         `I shall have a son'...''

Plaut, Translation: ``...perhaps I shall have a son through her.''
       Comment: ``Have a son. Literally `be built up', a word play on
       ben, son and banah, build up''

Alter, Comment: ``The Hebrew 'ibaneh puns on ben `son' and so means "I
       will be sonned through her".''

Their colective opinion is that we learn of Sarai's specific desire
for a son, not merely for a child of either sex, by understanding the pun.
I'm not saying this is obscure, Plaut thinks it is so clear he puts the
punned meaning in his translation rather than relegating it to a comment
as do Speiser and Alter.

I think this is a good example because both meanings are so clear.
If we took 'ibaneh out of context and asked what it means we could say
its first person, refers to the future, and means I will be built up.
However, in context, it has a clear second meaning by virtue of it
sounding similar to ben, son.

The writer had a choice of several words which are more directly
related to childbearing that he could have picked from. It seems
clear to me that he chose 'ibaneh over the other options because
of its ability to carry a double meaning in this context.

I'm open to suggestions of other verses which you think would
be better examples.

Bill Rea, IT Services, University of Canterbury \_
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