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b-hebrew - Re: [b-hebrew] 2Sam24:1 v. Gen18:1-3

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  • From: Peter Kirk <peterkirk AT qaya.org>
  • To: Dave Washburn <dwashbur AT nyx.net>
  • Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] 2Sam24:1 v. Gen18:1-3
  • Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 17:37:09 +0100

On 15/08/2005 16:48, Dave Washburn wrote:

...

Surely I don't. Even before I understood the concepts of the various
grammatical
meanings, the word "wayye$eb" intrinsically conveyed to me, as a kid
reading the Bible in Hebrew, an *act* of sitting and not some stative verb
form.

So what? As a kid, you might have misunderstood it. I don't see the point here.


This is conveyed solely by the verb form.

Hardly. In nearly all places where it carries that connotation, it's conveyed mainly by context.


Dave, are you denying that WAYYE$EB (at least in most cases) means "(and) he sat down", an action, and that W:HU' YO$EB (what we have in Gen 18:1) means "(and) he was sitting", a state? Or are you claiming that there is no semantic difference and that we can only tell from the context which was meant?

...

I think some of the discussions here should separate between personal theories that may be advanced by individual members on the
list, and which those same members may discuss, and the standard accepted
understanding which is what someone new to Biblical linguistics is
interested in knowing.


Excuse me? Are you trying to declare personal theories, which incidentally have been published in refereed journals and elsewhere, out of bounds? I guess you want to silence Rolf too, then, because he definitely has a personal theory that he presents often and politely here. My theory is another one. ...


Dave, no one wants to silence anyone. But what Yitzhak is doing to you is what you and I have often done to Rolf, he is objecting when a speculative theory not (yet) accepted by the scholarly consensus (whatever that may be) is presented as if it is accepted fact. And he is presenting an alternative view which is far more widely accepted, although of course that does not imply that it is correct or even coherent. I don't think appeals to one's personal authority carry more weight on this list than appeals to the authority of a scholarly consensus. What we are all looking for is evidence.



...

YHWH appearing. That's an awfully short line! And the business about "a
new line of events" ignores the fact that the next verb, "he lifted," is
another wayyiqtol. What's it sequential to? Abraham sitting?

Yes. Abraham was sitting, and then he looked up. What's the problem?


Hardly. To get that
you'd have to assume that Abraham stood up and then lifted his eyes,

Huh? Why? How? Why does "lifting one's eyes" require Abraham to
stand up?


Because it's a wayyiqtol, and according to your presentation, the action of a wayyiqtol presents the next item in a sequence taking place after the previous action is completed. That's what you said, go back and reread your post. So the wayyiqtol "he lifted up his eyes" according to your own theory means that the action of being seated had to have been completed first, i.e. he stood up.

No, Yitzhak's interpretation does not require this, even if perhaps his wording was not clear. The rule of sequentiality applies only between two WAYYIQTOLs. A stative clause followed by a WAYYIQTOL does not, on anyone's interpretation, require that the state was terminated before the action of the WAYYIQTOL. Indeed I would suggest the opposite, that it implies at least in most cases that the state is still continuing at the time of the action.

In addition, what's the first wayyiqtol in verse 1
sequential to? Ishmael's circumcision? I think not. It begins a new
pericope, and isn't sequential to anything.

It is sequential to anything that happened previously. Being sequential
doesn't mean you have to know what the previous episode in the story
was. What you do assume is that anything that happened previously
is over. And that is the basic assumption of a new pericope.


Oh, nice cop-out! The fact is, it begins a new pericope, and in that position, sequentiality has nothing to do with it. ...


Yes, it does. There is at least a presumption within the editorial framework of the book that successive pericopes are presented in chronological order. That means that the start of one pericope is sequential to the preceding one - and that is why a large proportion of new pericopes start with WAYYIQTOLs. Of course there are cases of whole Bible books starting with WAYYIQTOL, but that may imply that, within an editorial framework, they were intended to be sequential to the previous book, as is surely intended with Leviticus (WAYYIQRA'...) and Numbers (WAYDABBER...).

...

Hinneh is not a verb. Look at my other message. "wa" or "w:" will always
be there. But generally in conjuction with a verb it suggests serial,
sequential action. As a reprecussion of this, when it does not appear in
conjuction with a verb, it suggests non-sequential action.


I have no idea what you just said. First, I never said HINNEH was a verb. If you hadn't snipped the rest of my comment, that would have been clear. Second, I have no idea what you just said.


Well, it is very clear to me. Yitzhak holds that clauses starting with W- and a verb are sequential to what precedes, whereas when W- is attached to another element, and either the verb follows or the clause is verbless, the action or state is non-sequential. This is probably an over-simplification, but is not far from the truth.


...

Okay, you still haven't explained how a form that is always sequential to
something else can begin a new line of events. You also haven't
explained why, if it's true that "by the time he looked up and sighted
them, they were already standing before him," he had to run to them. Running to them suggests that they were still a ways away.

"Standing before him" doesn't mean they were an inch away. They could have
been a yard or two away.


So he ran a yard or two? I hope he didn't wear himself out too badly. It still doesn't make sense. And I notice you conveniently skipped over the first part of that paragraph.


So what is your alternative, Dave? That he ran towards them before he saw them, while still looking down? The sequence of events given by the WAYYIQTOLs is in fact the only pragmatically possible one, that he looked up, he saw the three, and then he ran towards them. Of course there is a slight problem about how far away they were when he saw them, but that doesn't go away if you make this non-sequential.

...

Huh? You don't like the theory because you have your own theory. However,
until your theory is accepted by most linguists, you should discuss your
theory amongst linguists. But if a new person comes and tries to
understand the passage, it is only reasonable to say, "Look, this is what
most linguists and almost everybody thinks it means. But I think something
else, based on various exceptions." And only then discuss your ideas.


Once again, I'd like to know what qualifies you to try and suppress someone else's theory on this list. If we're going to limit ourselves to supposedly standard theories and only stick alternate theories off in their own little ghetto, we're going to have a problem because there are about half a dozen such alternate theories running around here. ...


Yitzhak is not in any way trying to suppress your theory. He is explictly stating that you are welcome to present your theory, but should add a disclaimed that this is your own opinion and not what is accepted by most scholars. And I agree. So you are making a false accusation for which you should apologise.

--
Peter Kirk
peter AT qaya.org (personal)
peterkirk AT qaya.org (work)
http://www.qaya.org/



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