Biblical Hebrew Forum

[Uri Hurwitz <uhurwitz AT yahoo.com>]

 Hi Brian, if you recheck your sources you'll see that David does not at all 
mean "champion"; this is simply a conjecture derived from a non-Semitic 
language, and has not been substantiated., Nobody knows what the name means; 
the two other possibilities from the HB do not make sense.
  Solomon is derived from the root peace ( the same you use, in the Arabic 
pl.form, in the closing of your letters!).
 
 No  matter how the slightly different narratives developed around Goliat in 
Samuel and Chronicles, in the both he is described hailing from Gath, one of 
the Philistine pentapolis centers. I don't see therefore the need for Goliat 
one, and Goliat two.
 
  But as the German saying goes: "Die Gedanken sind Frei".
 
  Shalom Rav,                                                   Uri


Brian Roberts <formoria AT carolina.rr.com> wrote:
Uri,

Thanks for the timely reply. Given that so many characters' names in the 
Hebrew Bible were fluid, changing to fit their mission or reputation, it 
would not surprise me if such turned out to be the case in both David 
AND Solomon's lives. "David" meaning "champion" and "Solomon" meaning 
"peace" certainly sound to me like reputations or titles both had 
acquired after certain events in their lives had transpired. It has the 
appearance of seeming reasonable here, at least to this amateur.

Best Salaams,

Brian


On Tuesday, January 25, 2005, at 11:57 AM, Uri Hurwitz wrote:

>  Brian, we're shifting here to guessing games, e.g. that both are 
> really one person, or ,as someone cited, that David's name was not 
> really David.
>  
>   The simplest way to understand this is that we are indeed dealing 
> with two individuals. Elhanan was remembered for the feat of slaying 
> Goliath. Later on, when more and more stories were added for the 
> glorification of David, Elhanan achievement was attributed to him.
>  
>   This would be a fine example of the reconstruction of important 
> biblical personalties. By that I do not mean to imply that such 
> personalities did not exist historically.
>  
>  Uri
>
> Brian Roberts wrote:
>
> Has anyone seriously given attention to the possibility that David and
> El-hanan (both variously said to have slain Goliath) could be one and
> the same person? I've read online looking for papers, but I find nothing
> more probing than the assertion in the Encyclopedia Judaica that Elhanan
> was David's original name. This would seem to be a natural avenue to
> explore, given the ancient Hebrews' penchant for evolving names over
> time. In a cursory look, it could be argued that II Sam. 11:19
> represents the first recording of Elhanan, while I Chron. 20:5 is a
> later writer's attempt to understand the two stories and avoid
> confusion. Was "David" a title (champion) used elsewhere for others?) Is
> ja'are an error for ja'ir and are both errors for Jesse?
>
> yr[y ry[y r[y r[yy'y
>
> Best SAlaams,
>
> Brian Roberts
>
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>
>
>

>
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>From peterkirk AT qaya.org  Thu Jan 27 19:08:30 2005
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On 27/01/2005 22:57, Uri Hurwitz wrote:

> Hi Brian, if you recheck your sources you'll see that David does not at all 
> mean "champion"; this is simply a conjecture derived from a non-Semitic 
> language, and has not been substantiated., Nobody knows what the name 
> means; the two other possibilities from the HB do not make sense.
>  
>

Doesn't it make sense to derive the name DWD (sometimes DWYD) from the 
well-attested root DWD/YDD "love", so that it is effectively a doublet 
of the common noun DWD (pronounced dod) "beloved, uncle"? I agree that 
this derivation is not certain, but it does seem to make sense.

>  Solomon is derived from the root peace ( the same you use, in the Arabic 
> pl.form, in the closing of your letters!).
>  
>

Not the Arabic plural form, but the Arabic word with an English plural 
suffix.

> 
> No  matter how the slightly different narratives developed around Goliat in 
> Samuel and Chronicles, in the both he is described hailing from Gath, one 
> of the Philistine pentapolis centers. I don't see therefore the need for 
> Goliat one, and Goliat two.
> 
>  
>
I think there is some confusion here between Karl and Brian, compounded 
by a failure to recognise that in every case (1 Samuel 17:4, 2 Samuel 
21:19, 1 Chronicles 20:5) Goliath is said to be from Gath (or 
equivalently a Gittite). But having the same name and same place of 
origin does not imply that this is the same person. (To realise that, 
study the Third Intermediate Period in Egypt.) Karl's point that the 
Goliath of 2 Samuel was killed by a different person at a different time 
and different circumstances from the Goliath of 1 Samuel seems a 
reasonably strong argument that these are different people (far stronger 
than the evidence for some supposed separate Pharaohs!), although it is 
less strong if you recognise that 2 Samuel 21:15-22 may be not a 
temporal succession but a collection of separate stories.

-- 
Peter Kirk
peter AT qaya.org (personal)
peterkirk AT qaya.org (work)
http://www.qaya.org/



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