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  • From: dhondt <dhondt@eircom.net>
  • To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] [OT] My Vision of the Future (now!)
  • Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 22:31:51 +0100

It is not as simple as the big ones eat the small ones in nature Michael. The big predators are necessary for the health of ecosystems. Take out the apex predators and often you see everything collapsing with some of the smaller ones that were kept in check now exploding and pushing out several entire species. In other words, making the whole a lot poorer.
Nature is not simply amoral. It strives for maximal biomass and that means maximal diversity. And that means lots of eating and getting eaten.

Then some new species like our own comes along with one new trick that nature had never seen : long distance weapons. At first spear throwers and bow and arrow and shortly afterwards rockets and rifles that can kill from more than a mile distance. And bing a new species that not yet fits in to nature we are causing the sixth extinction and maybe the destruction of the world.

Our ideas of justice or injustice only cover our own species up to a point and when there were very few of us that made survival sense. Now it is lethal.
And no, I do not know what to do about this except think about it.
John

On 03/08/16 14:12, Michael Elvin wrote:
I don't like to put a kink in the consensus, but this seems to be a common view:
""Figure out a better solution," says the mind, forgetting that there are no
problems in the natural world and thereby making conflict."
That's only true if you posit that the natural world has no morality. Because in
reality, everyone eats everybody else. The big ones eat the little ones, always
have. The thing that's different about people, they have ideas about things like
justice & injustice... and these ideas upset the natural amorality.
Hope I'm not being too out of line.

On Tuesday, August 2, 2016 12:56 AM, Vaidila Satvika <vaidila@gmail.com>
wrote:

Well said, Scott! I'm happy for you and the direction you are guiding.

There is no such thing as "understanding" consciousness because that's all
beyond the little mind's capacity. Conceptualization and thinking on this
level are part of the chatter that miss the deeper understanding of love
that you're pointing to. On the level of thought we can seek and we will
never find. The mind's reaction to this email is to judge these statements
as pointless: "Figure out a better solution," says the mind, forgetting
that there are no problems in the natural world and thereby making
conflict. Our culture--Me and You--are too materialistic because we give
too much of ourselves to thought--the most prevalent form dominating every
human being. The natural world doesn't think--it's in harmony with itself.
In this sense the natural world operates as a perfect invisible structure.
(Title for your upcoming book?)

And this all points to the direction that you seem to imply: inward focus
for a more harmonious external reality. (But on a deeper level it's all
internal to and not separate from you/me because there is only one
connected life in constant play.)

Thank you!

P.S. The only sane vision of the future is now. Future only exists as a
thought, based on the premise that tomorrow is better than today, leading
to a perpetual craving that has led to the dysfunctional human state. And
the mind cannot exit that problem, which is the most essential problem,
because it itself is the barrier. And that realization is healing.



On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 1:42 PM, <scott@permaculture.org> wrote:

I personally think that a separate group for this would attract little
attention and soon die. To this mix is a good solution, in spite of some
pleople signing off ever now and then. -- Georg Parlow

Therein lies the problem, Georg. I have been teaching permaculture for
the past 30+ years and for half of that time I have been insisting on the
importance of invisible structures. Mollison taught that visible
structures were those that showed us "what" to do and invisible structures
taught us "how" to do it. Without the how too we are just an encyclopedia
of techniques and methods of dealing with the material world. Once we dig
deep into the invisible structures we find we are able to dance around the
legal, financial, and social structures that are the primary impediments to
realizing our dreams.

I also include permaculture ethics in the invisible structures though they
are mostly poorly taught in the Permaculture Design Course by many teachers
who are not engaged in the ethics themselves. Care of the Earth, Care of
People and Return all excess yield to the Care of the Earth and People
sounds simple enough but if one truly applies ones thoughts to deeply
understanding these three ethics it leads us deeper into the realm of the
unknown. I, personally, think that "Care" should be replaced with the word
"Love" to get the deeper significance of these ethics.

I have been living on a yoga ashram for the past year seeking a deeper
understanding of the invisible and have been humbled by my ignorance of the
necessity to understand consciousness. Physicists, philosophers,
theologians, and gurus of all stripes have sought to understand
consciousness and the deep appeal of materialism for hundreds of years but
few have actually reached that pinnacle of understanding. After a year of
sitting on a zafu in meditation twice a day, 7 days a week find myself no
closer to understanding anything except that I know that there is an answer
and that meditation, prayer, contemplation, and altered states are all
methods that are directed at self realization. It is a difficult process
to overcome the incessant chatter of the mind whose primary purpose in life
is to keep us tethered to the material plane.

We no longer have the Wisdom Schools of the past to provide us with direct
knowledge of this process. We have become so embedded in the materialistic
plane that we all are narcissists to a greater or lesser degree. We
currently have a candidate for president of the USA who is the ultimate
narcissist, while the other candidate is a narcissist in denial. Our
hunger for stuff/things has led to the destruction of our biosphere and to
wars to steal the stuff from other cultures and places. We are engaged in
the final spasms of destroying ourselves and the planet to feed an
insatiable appetite for something to fill the void in our existence. As
permaculture designers it is incumbent upon us to find our way back to the
garden.

When I haven't been meditating I have been trying to write a book titled
"Dharma of Permaculture". Dharma being the law of the cosmos as it is
reflected in us. This was what the ten commandments were attempting, and
the beatitudes of Jesus Christ was trying to articulate. Buddha, Lao Tsu,
Mohammed, Yogis, and other avatars throughout the ages have sought to
articulate humans role in creation and have offered rules of behavior to
guide us to that understanding.

I believe that permaculture ethics are an outline of how humans should
survive and that the "natural principals" show us the dharma of the natural
world around us. It has been through permaculture that I have slowly come
to realize that I am here to caretake or husband this incredible creation
that we no longer recognize the beauty and stunning intelligence of.

I would love for other to join me in seeking better solutions to life than
the ones we currently worship.
-------Original Message-------
From: Linda Ray <lindaray@att.net>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] [OT] My Vision of the Future
Sent: Jul 31 '16 18:21

I'm with Georg on this.JMHO.

Namaste,
Linda :-)


From: Georg Parlow <g.parlow@gmx.at>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2016 11:49 AM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] [OT] My Vision of the Future

Lawrence,

>>> someone can create a Google Group PISS (permaculture invisible
systems
>> and
>>> structures)
>>
>> ROTFLOL
>>
> ...
> …
> You might disagree with me Georg.

please do not get me wrong - sorry when I was unclear here. I
personally feel that a discussion of invisible structures is a highly
impoertant part of why I am on this international list. Nut’n’bolts info is
valuable, and I think none of us can ever have too much of that, but I feel
that for the visible structures there are plenty of good solutions around,
locally and beyond. Even 50% of what I know about them right now and my
design training and experience would be ample enough IF I could and would
apply them unhindered by the current invisible structures in place. So
discussion on HOW we can design and implement WHICH invisible structures is
highly needed.
I think we can also all agree on the notion, that interlocking our
horns on our favoured propaganda-fed belief systems is something we could
do without - BUT in order to grow in our inner freedom from those
influences it might need some of that. It might be helpful in realizing or
discriminating between, what are original thougths and what are
propaganda-driven emotional reactions to distorted perception of reality.
This is tricky business, and I appreciate these discussions.
I interpreted that naming the invisible structures group PISS as a
Freudian sign of you being pissed about said confrontations.
I personally think that a separate group for this would attract little
attention and soon die. To this mix is a good solution, in spite of some
pleople signing off ever now and then.
Georg
(Vienna, Austria, EU)
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