permaculture

[Linda Ray <lindaray@att.net>]

Hi Permies :-),

I must respectfully disagree with Alia, and I Thank You Lawrence for posting 
this article.
Alia, please be aware that the statements that follow in this post are not 
directed at you personally. They are a product of my own long frustration 
with what some call "science" these days.


My opinion:

IMO it was a great article, and was chockfull of good leads which can now be 
tracked down by whomever doesn't mind the legwork. Plus it connected many 
dots quite well, I thought. It also contained much valuable correlated 
information which I have not seen anywhere else.


IMHO the problem with the current-day worship of what some call 'science' is, 
no one will believe it if someone else hasn't done it/proven it/killed 50,000 
rats with it/ already. This is not the way to break new ground, because in 
addition to its horrible and inexcusable inhumanity, to adopt such a 
philosophy guarantees that one cannot be first to find out anything. 

  

Many years ago, Science used to be synonymous with progress. Now IMO, 
'science' has become more of a stultifying obstruction to progress.

My point is, IMO the definition of "Science" has to change. What we have 
right now is "Science Without Conscience" and "Science As A Slave To Big 
Business". 

It is nowhere near the same.

Namaste,

Linda





________________________________
 From: Lawrence London <lfljvenaura@gmail.com>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org> 
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2014 4:28 PM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] 37 Million Bees Found Dead In Ontario, Canada 
After Planting Large GMO Corn Field | Organic Health
 

On Tue, Nov 11, 2014 at 3:02 PM, Alia Tsang <alia@dietrick.org> wrote:

>
> Sorry, Lawrence, but I disagree that a "poor article is better than no
> article." A poor article gives fodder to the opposing side to point at
> and say "they don't even know science!!" (I am on an entomology
> listserv that does exactly that.) I also don't trust a site that over
> 50% of the screen real estate is advertisements.... a site like that
> is more likely to make an article more alarmist/controversial/etc to
> make it "click bait" so that they make more ad revenue. Hence the
> article title drawing you in with "GMO CORN FIELD," when the real
> issue here (that is potentially overshadowed and made easier to
> dismiss by the mention of GMO's) is neonicotinoids.
>
> a
>

You are right if we make up for the lack of permaculture-related news in
the mainstream
by spending more time searching in-depth for what is important to us
elsewhere online or in printed media.
These days few email discussion forums or webforums or social media
resources (except for Reddit and Ello) are going to provide much bounty.


-- 
Lawrence F. London
lfljvenaura@gmail.com
http://www.avantgeared.com
https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
Ello: https://ello.co/ecoponderosa <https://ello.co/ecoponderosa>
Twitter: @ecoponderosa <https://twitter.com/ecoponderosa>
Reddit: ecoponderosa
Cellphone: lfljcell@gmail.com
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>From jacque@book-woman.net  Tue Nov 11 22:15:24 2014
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Subject: Re: [permaculture] 37 Million Bees Found Dead In Ontario,
        Canada After Planting Large GMO Corn Field | Organic Health
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Thanks John. I haven=E2=80=99t seen this myself, but then I don=E2=80=99t =
keep bees or grow corn!


> On Nov 11, 2014, at 5:55 PM, John D'hondt <dhondt@eircom.net> wrote:
>=20
> There are may other wind pollinated plants that our bees really depend =
upon for survival. Willows in early spring are about the only plants =
that bees can find food at and when the catkins are out they are full of =
bees. You do see fewer bees on flowering corn but then a little bit of =
potent poison brought in a hive goes a long way to kill all around.
> John
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jacqueline Greenleaf" =
<jacque@book-woman.net>
> To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2014 12:09 AM
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] 37 Million Bees Found Dead In =
Ontario,Canada After Planting Large GMO Corn Field | Organic Health
>=20
>=20
>> It=E2=80=99s true the world is a surprising place, but do bees =
collect corn pollen? Corn is a wind-pollinated plant.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>> On Nov 10, 2014, at 4:33 AM, Eisenhauer =
<eisenhauerdesign@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> The seed coating enters the plant systemically and is expressed in =
the pollen which bees collect to feed their brood.  The studies done =
shows bees within flight distance of GMO corn treated with the systemic =
pesticides as a seed coat experience increased percentages of hive =
deaths.  This Is old science well known by beekeepers like myself and =
thousands of others.  This sort of die off occurred in the Rhine valley =
of Germany and so they banned the pesticides after fining Bayer Crop =
Science millions and reimbursing beekeepers for their losses.  Really =
this is ignorance in action causing the inevitable result of failure to =
our living systems.
>>> Steven Eisenhauer.
>>>=20
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: permaculture [mailto:permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] =
On Behalf Of Lawrence London
>>> Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2014 7:28 PM
>>> To: permaculture
>>> Subject: Re: [permaculture] 37 Million Bees Found Dead In Ontario, =
Canada After Planting Large GMO Corn Field | Organic Health
>>>=20
>>> On Sat, Nov 8, 2014 at 12:01 PM, Jacqueline Greenleaf =
<jacque@book-woman.net
>>>> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>> I=E2=80=99m puzzled.
>>>>=20
>>>> Let me say first that I hate GMOs and I am very concerned about
>>>> honeybees in particular and pollinators in general. And I think
>>>> neonics should be banned yesterday.
>>>>=20
>>>> But how could the planting of a wind-pollinated crop cause such
>>>> massive bee die-off? Further, it is not clear in the article that =
the
>>>> crop was even mature enough (what does a few weeks mean?) to even =
be releasing pollen.
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Because the SEEDS are COATED with NEONICOTINOID pesticides so that =
the seed and its sproutling will survive attacks from predatory insects =
and diseases.
>>> How the neonicotinoid coating spread into the environment so that =
bees can come in contact with them is the question; possibly airborne =
dust, rain washing it onto soil, into watercourses and impoundments and =
onto plants.
>>>=20
>>> Was the field sprayed with neonics?
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Its on the seeds, i.e. seed coatings, the new thing (as in =
frankenthing).
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> If so, the fact that the field was planted with GMOs has no =
bearing,
>>>> unless neonics are only applied to GMO corn, which I do not believe =
to
>>>> be the case. But the article does not say that any kind of =
pesticide
>>>> was applied to this field.
>>>>=20
>>>> In short, this is a very poorly written article. Now the world is =
full
>>>> of those, but I hate to see permies inflict on themselves a =
reputation
>>>> of fuzzy thinking.
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Poor article but better than no article. Better to propagate badnews =
about neonicotinoids even if the site and its writers are less than =
dedicated (the way we would be).
>>>=20
>>>> Jacque
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>> On Nov 8, 2014, at 8:35 AM, Lawrence London =
<lfljvenaura@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> 37 Million Bees Found Dead In Ontario, Canada After Planting Large
>>>>> GMO
>>>> Corn
>>>>> Field
>>>>> <
>>>> =
http://organichealth.co/37-million-bees-found-dead-in-ontario-canada-a
>>>> fter-planting-large-gmo-corn-field/
>>>>> 37
>>>>> Million Bees Found Dead In Ontario, Canada After Planting Large =
GMO
>>>>> Corn  Field | Organic Health
>>>>>=20
>>>> =
http://organichealth.co/37-million-bees-found-dead-in-ontario-canada-a
>>>> fter-planting-large-gmo-corn-field/
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Millions of bees dropped dead after GMO corn was planted few weeks
>>>>> ago in Ontario, Canada. The local bee keeper, Dave Schuit who
>>>>> produces honey in Elmwood lost about 37 million bees which are =
about 600 hives.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =E2=80=9COnce the corn started to get planted our bees died by the =
millions,=E2=80=9D
>>>>> Schuit said. While many bee keepers blame neonicotinoids, or =
=E2=80=9Cneonics.=E2=80=9D
>>>> for
>>>>> colony collapse of bees and many countries in EU have banned
>>>> neonicotinoid
>>>>> class of pesticides, the US Department of Agriculture fails to ban
>>>>> insecticides known as neonicotinoids, manufactured by Bayer
>>>>> CropScience
>>>> Inc.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Two of Bayer=E2=80=99s best-selling pesticides, Imidacloprid and
>>>>> Clothianidin,
>>>> are
>>>>> known to get into pollen and nectar, and can damage beneficial
>>>>> insects
>>>> such
>>>>> as bees. The marketing of these drugs also coincided with the
>>>>> occurrence
>>>> of
>>>>> large-scale bee deaths in many European countries and the United =
States.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Nathan Carey another local farmer says that this spring he noticed
>>>>> that there were not enough bees on his farm and he believes that
>>>>> there is a strong correlation between the disappearance of bees =
and insecticide use.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> In the past, many scientists have struggled to find the exact =
cause
>>>>> of
>>>> the
>>>>> massive die-offs, a phenomenon they refer to as =E2=80=9Ccolony =
collapse
>>>> disorder=E2=80=9D
>>>>> (CCD). In the United States, for seven consecutive years, =
honeybees
>>>>> are
>>>> in
>>>>> terminal decline.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> US scientists have found 121 different pesticides in samples of
>>>>> bees, wax and pollen, lending credence to the notion that =
pesticides
>>>>> are a key problem. =E2=80=9CWe believe that some subtle =
interactions between
>>>>> nutrition, pesticide exposure and other stressors are converging =
to kill colonies,=E2=80=9D
>>>>> said Jeffery Pettis, of the ARS=E2=80=99s bee research laboratory.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The collapse in the global honeybee population is a major threat =
to
>>>> crops.
>>>>> It is estimated that a third of everything we eat depends upon
>>>>> honeybee pollination, which means that bees contribute over 30
>>>>> billion to the
>>>> global
>>>>> economy.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> A new study published in the Journal Proceedings of the National
>>>>> Academy
>>>> of
>>>>> Sciences revealed that neonicotinoid pesticides kill honeybees by
>>>> damaging
>>>>> their immune system and making them unable to fight diseases and
>>>> bacteria.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> After reporting large losses of bees after exposure to =
Imidacloprid,
>>>> banned
>>>>> it for use on corn and sunflowers, despite protests by Bayer. In
>>>>> another smart move, France also rejected Bayer=E2=80=99s =
application for
>>>>> Clothianidin,
>>>> and
>>>>> other countries, such as Italy, have banned certain neonicotinoids
>>>>> as
>>>> well.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> After record-breaking honeybee deaths in the UK, the European =
Union
>>>>> has banned multiple pesticides, including neonicotinoid =
pesticides.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> *You have our permission to reprint this article via creative
>>>>> commons license if you attribute us with a live backlink to this
>>>>> article.* -
>>>> Organic
>>>>> Health <http://organichealth.co>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
>>>>> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org How to
>>>>> permaculture your urban lifestyle http://www.ipermie.net Avant
>>>>> Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
>>>>> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
>>>>> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
>>>> pioneers practicing and teaching permaculture
>>>>> while designing ecological, biointensive land use systems with
>>>> integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
>>>> enhanced nature-compatible
>>>>> human habitat --
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
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permaculture
>>>> your urban lifestyle http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared
>>>> http://www.avantgeared.com https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
>>>> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
>>>> pioneers practicing and teaching permaculture while designing
>>>> ecological, biointensive land use systems with integrated elements =
for
>>>> synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced =
nature-compatible
>>>> human habitat --
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> --
>>> Lawrence F. London
>>> lfljvenaura@gmail.com
>>> http://www.avantgeared.com
>>> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
>>> Ello: https://ello.co/ecoponderosa <https://ello.co/ecoponderosa>
>>> Twitter: @ecoponderosa <https://twitter.com/ecoponderosa>
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Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org How to permaculture =
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http://www.avantgeared.com https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
>>> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech =
pioneers practicing and teaching permaculture while designing =
ecological, biointensive land use systems with integrated elements for =
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human habitat --
>>>=20
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>>=20
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>> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
>> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech =
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> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech =
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> while designing ecological, biointensive land use systems with =
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