permaculture

[Michael Pilarski <friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com>]

Here is what I tell my pdc students when the 3rd ethic is discussed.  I 
mention all the permutations of the 3rd ethic, including the term "fair 
share".  Most people are anthropocentric and at first hearing the term think 
of sharing among humans.  I point out that fair share also applies to homo 
sapiens sharing the planet in a fair way with all the other species we share 
the planet with. Which is where the limits to growth and consumption comes 
in.  

Humans are using too much of the planet for their own ends and have pushed 
many species to extinction or the edge of extinction.  We need to make more 
room for the other species to survive and thrive.  We need to use less of the 
land for agriculture and grazing our domestic livestock.  We need to fish 
less of the world's oceans.  We need to walk more lightly as a species.  

Permaculture gives us land use patterns that are more able to accommodate 
wild creatures in the same space as humans.  


 Michael Pilarski



On Monday, March 24, 2014 7:37 AM, Chris Carnevale <c.s.carnevale@gmail.com> 
wrote:
 
This is invaluable information to be having documented. There was a 
thread on this listserv not long ago about the third ethic and I 
remember reading someone say that "fair share" was adopted just to fit 
into the rhyming scheme of the other two. After reading that it is 
descended from "/to recognise and establish limits to growth and 
consumption and disperse surplus to support care of the earth and care 
of people,"/ "fair share" seems to be a much better distillation of the 
idea than simply "share the surplus." Robyn, I believe your 
interpretation of implications is correct. And Steve, I agree the two 
phrases have two very different meanings.

Chris Carnevale



On 3/24/14, 2:10 AM, Steve Hart wrote:
> Thanks Robyn for a clarification. My experience in observing the many
> teaching patterns wherever I go is that there is as I've been beating on
> about like Scotty far too many willing teachers who offered a very
> distorted perspective to this 3rd ethic. With the tremendous work being
> done by the collective of energies around Europe in the EPT series of
> conferences much of this clarification is vital and desperately needed. I
> have used primarily your curriculum as a basis for all levels of teaching
> but do personally enjoy elements of the original curricula which I once had
> from my course in 1981 and follow up courses with Bill, Max and Lea. I also
> like Skeeta and Scotty perhaps resonate with the original. To me "Share of
> Surplus" and "Fair Share" have two totally different meanings.
>
> Perhaps a full paper on the 3rd ethic will help considerably to support the
> best dissemination of the subject into the new teaching world. ...Steve Hart
>
>
> On 24 March 2014 05:39, Robyn Francis <robyn@permaculture.com.au> wrote:
>
>> The PDC outline in the download is a bit different from the original and
>> unfortunate that it doesn't acknowledge the source, authors, date or
>> include the preamble. I do have a copy somewhere of the original document
>> which I'm trying to find in my too numerous archives. I've found the
>> original Arid Zones PDC Handbook by Bill and it seems some of this has been
>> incorporated into Scott's edited version "PDC Outline". The original PDC
>> Handbook as issued by The Permaculture Institute (Australia) was written by
>> Bill Mollison, Andrew Jeeves and Reny Slay.
>>
>> Re Third Ethic, what Bill taught in the courses I did and co-taught with
>> him in the 80s & early 90s, was " to recognise and establish limits to
>> growth and consumption and disperse surplus to support care of the earth
>> and care of people".  Bill had a habit of rephrasing this third ethic and
>> also his pc principles, so there's many different versions, which can be
>> somewhat confusing.
>>
>> I have only every heard Bill talk of three ethics, not four.  There are
>> some permies trying to introduce a fourth ethic "Spirit Care" but
>> personally don't support this idea, as it nests within the first two - i.e.
>> providing for peoples material and non-material needs
>>
>> Under the catch cry "Fair Share" i introduce the first part of ethic 3,
>> limits to growth and consumption, in the context of designing and living
>> within our ecological footprint (to use/consume more than our share is
>> 'unfair' and effectively stealing from future generations, as well as
>> contributing to current inequity in the world) and that all natural, and
>> subsequently human, systems have limits, then second to this comes the
>> ethical sharing of surpluses  we might generate.
>>
>> Robyn
>>
>>
>> On 24/03/2014, at 4:39 AM, Toby Hemenway wrote:
>>
>>> Couple of questions:
>>>
>>> Who wrote the handbook that LL linked to at
>>>
>>> Permaculture Institute/Scott Pittman: Publication2 - PDC-Outline.pdf
>>> http://www.permaculture.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/PDC-Outline.pdf
>>>
>>> This has been around in various forms for many years, and this is a
>> revised version of the one I got in 1994. I've never seen an author's name
>> on it.
>>> Second question: What is the 3rd ethic? In the Designer's Manual on P 2
>> Mollison says that the 3rd ethic is
>>> "3. Setting limits to population and consumption: By governing our own
>> needs, we can set resources aside to further the above principles" [Bill is
>> referring to ethics 1 and 2, care of earth and care of people--which he
>> confusingly calls "principles."]
>>> So--how did "set limits to population and consumption" get turned into
>> "share the surplus"? Bill muddled the issue by adding "we can set resources
>> aside" to his "set limits" injunction, but still--how did we drop the whole
>> "set limits" piece so that so many people think that the 3rd ethic has
>> always been "share the surplus" when it never has been that, according to
>> Bill?
>>> Toby
>>> http://patternliteracy.com
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mar 23, 2014, at 1:17 AM, Steve Hart <stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>> Thanks for that Scotty
>>>>
>>>> This brings up memory....you say
>>>>
>>>> "At some point the fourth ethic was
>>>> dropped from the teaching of permaculture and that ethic, *reduction of*
>>>> *population and consumerism*, was and is critical to our future path."
>>>>
>>>> I too like yourself have issue with the diversion of the 3rd Ethic which
>>>> has always been from the beginning "Share the Surplus" not the watered
>> down
>>>> version "Fair Share" which has an entirely different meaning
>>>>
>>>> As you also say
>>>>
>>>> " Not the watered down version of permaculture
>>>> that is currently being flogged by to many incompetent teachers and
>>>> practitioners but the version that I believe was envisioned by Bill
>>>> Mollison's anger and David Holmgren's thoughtfulness"
>>>>
>>>> I continue the challenge to re-right this ship which is sinking fast
>>>> already listing badly, by plugging effort into the European Permaculture
>>>> Teachers ( perma*teachers*.*eu )* series of conferences. IMO it is
>> critical
>>>> to get a recognised firm curricula (
>>>> http://www.permaculture.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/PDC-Outline.pdf)
>>>> as one basis for teaching. Then of course build an entity to develop and
>>>> support the standards to maintain all this.
>>>>
>>>> Scotty, I'd like to see your paragraph on the detailed explanation of
>> the
>>>> 3rd & 4th ethic, to share amongst all
>>>>
>>>> Warm ones ...
>>>> Kia ora
>>>>
>>>> [image: Picture]
>>>> *Steve Hart*
>>>> Ecology Architect
>>>> skype: stevenlawrencehart
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> permaculture mailing list
>>>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list
>> maintenance:
>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>>>> message archives:  http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture/
>>>> Google message archive search:
>>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
>>>> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
>>>> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
>>>> http://www.ipermie.net
>>>> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
>>>> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
>>>> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
>> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated
>> elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced
>> nature-compatible human habitat
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> permaculture mailing list
>>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list
>> maintenance:
>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>>> message archives:  http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture/
>>> Google message archive search:
>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
>>> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
>>> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
>>> http://www.ipermie.net
>>> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
>>> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
>>> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
>> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated
>> elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced
>> nature-compatible human habitat
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> permaculture mailing list
>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list
>> maintenance:
>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>> message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
>> Google message archive search:
>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
>> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
>> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
>> http://www.ipermie.net
>> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
>> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
>> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
>> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated
>> elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced
>> nature-compatible human habitat
>>
>
>

_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
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maintenance:
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message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
Google message archive search:
site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
http://www.ipermie.net
Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech pioneers 
-- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated elements for 
synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced nature-compatible human 
habitat
>From toby@patternliteracy.com  Mon Mar 24 10:55:47 2014
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When I talk about the 3rd ethic, I give a brief history, saying that I've 
never found "share the surplus" able to get at the heart of it--we're not 
just giving it away randomly. I tell classes that I prefer "return (or 
reinvest) the surplus" as it suggests that we need to give the yield back to 
the systems--the earth and the people--that provided it, and this 
reinvestment is what supports them. I have a graphic with arrows going to and 
from 3 circles, the circles being  earth, people, and surplus, showing that 
all three support one another.

And I also mention the original "set limits" idea.

Thanks, Robin, for the specifics of who said what when. Skeeter, thanks, too.

Toby
http://patternliteracy.com


On Mar 24, 2014, at 7:15 AM, Michael Pilarski <friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com> 
wrote:

> Here is what I tell my pdc students when the 3rd ethic is discussed.  I 
> mention all the permutations of the 3rd ethic, including the term "fair 
> share".  Most people are anthropocentric and at first hearing the term 
> think of sharing among humans.  I point out that fair share also applies to 
> homo sapiens sharing the planet in a fair way with all the other species we 
> share the planet with. Which is where the limits to growth and consumption 
> comes in.  
> 
> Humans are using too much of the planet for their own ends and have pushed 
> many species to extinction or the edge of extinction.  We need to make more 
> room for the other species to survive and thrive.  We need to use less of 
> the land for agriculture and grazing our domestic livestock.  We need to 
> fish less of the world's oceans.  We need to walk more lightly as a 
> species.  
> 
> Permaculture gives us land use patterns that are more able to accommodate 
> wild creatures in the same space as humans.  
> 
> 
>  Michael Pilarski
> 
> 
> 
> On Monday, March 24, 2014 7:37 AM, Chris Carnevale 
> <c.s.carnevale@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> This is invaluable information to be having documented. There was a 
> thread on this listserv not long ago about the third ethic and I 
> remember reading someone say that "fair share" was adopted just to fit 
> into the rhyming scheme of the other two. After reading that it is 
> descended from "/to recognise and establish limits to growth and 
> consumption and disperse surplus to support care of the earth and care 
> of people,"/ "fair share" seems to be a much better distillation of the 
> idea than simply "share the surplus." Robyn, I believe your 
> interpretation of implications is correct. And Steve, I agree the two 
> phrases have two very different meanings.
> 
> Chris Carnevale
> 
> 
> 
> On 3/24/14, 2:10 AM, Steve Hart wrote:
>> Thanks Robyn for a clarification. My experience in observing the many
>> teaching patterns wherever I go is that there is as I've been beating on
>> about like Scotty far too many willing teachers who offered a very
>> distorted perspective to this 3rd ethic. With the tremendous work being
>> done by the collective of energies around Europe in the EPT series of
>> conferences much of this clarification is vital and desperately needed. I
>> have used primarily your curriculum as a basis for all levels of teaching
>> but do personally enjoy elements of the original curricula which I once had
>> from my course in 1981 and follow up courses with Bill, Max and Lea. I also
>> like Skeeta and Scotty perhaps resonate with the original. To me "Share of
>> Surplus" and "Fair Share" have two totally different meanings.
>> 
>> Perhaps a full paper on the 3rd ethic will help considerably to support the
>> best dissemination of the subject into the new teaching world. ...Steve 
>> Hart
>> 
>> 
>> On 24 March 2014 05:39, Robyn Francis <robyn@permaculture.com.au> wrote:
>> 
>>> The PDC outline in the download is a bit different from the original and
>>> unfortunate that it doesn't acknowledge the source, authors, date or
>>> include the preamble. I do have a copy somewhere of the original document
>>> which I'm trying to find in my too numerous archives. I've found the
>>> original Arid Zones PDC Handbook by Bill and it seems some of this has 
>>> been
>>> incorporated into Scott's edited version "PDC Outline". The original PDC
>>> Handbook as issued by The Permaculture Institute (Australia) was written 
>>> by
>>> Bill Mollison, Andrew Jeeves and Reny Slay.
>>> 
>>> Re Third Ethic, what Bill taught in the courses I did and co-taught with
>>> him in the 80s & early 90s, was " to recognise and establish limits to
>>> growth and consumption and disperse surplus to support care of the earth
>>> and care of people".  Bill had a habit of rephrasing this third ethic and
>>> also his pc principles, so there's many different versions, which can be
>>> somewhat confusing.
>>> 
>>> I have only every heard Bill talk of three ethics, not four.  There are
>>> some permies trying to introduce a fourth ethic "Spirit Care" but
>>> personally don't support this idea, as it nests within the first two - 
>>> i.e.
>>> providing for peoples material and non-material needs
>>> 
>>> Under the catch cry "Fair Share" i introduce the first part of ethic 3,
>>> limits to growth and consumption, in the context of designing and living
>>> within our ecological footprint (to use/consume more than our share is
>>> 'unfair' and effectively stealing from future generations, as well as
>>> contributing to current inequity in the world) and that all natural, and
>>> subsequently human, systems have limits, then second to this comes the
>>> ethical sharing of surpluses  we might generate.
>>> 
>>> Robyn
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 24/03/2014, at 4:39 AM, Toby Hemenway wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Couple of questions:
>>>> 
>>>> Who wrote the handbook that LL linked to at
>>>> 
>>>> Permaculture Institute/Scott Pittman: Publication2 - PDC-Outline.pdf
>>>> http://www.permaculture.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/PDC-Outline.pdf
>>>> 
>>>> This has been around in various forms for many years, and this is a
>>> revised version of the one I got in 1994. I've never seen an author's name
>>> on it.
>>>> Second question: What is the 3rd ethic? In the Designer's Manual on P 2
>>> Mollison says that the 3rd ethic is
>>>> "3. Setting limits to population and consumption: By governing our own
>>> needs, we can set resources aside to further the above principles" [Bill 
>>> is
>>> referring to ethics 1 and 2, care of earth and care of people--which he
>>> confusingly calls "principles."]
>>>> So--how did "set limits to population and consumption" get turned into
>>> "share the surplus"? Bill muddled the issue by adding "we can set 
>>> resources
>>> aside" to his "set limits" injunction, but still--how did we drop the 
>>> whole
>>> "set limits" piece so that so many people think that the 3rd ethic has
>>> always been "share the surplus" when it never has been that, according to
>>> Bill?
>>>> Toby
>>>> http://patternliteracy.com
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Mar 23, 2014, at 1:17 AM, Steve Hart <stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>>> Thanks for that Scotty
>>>>> 
>>>>> This brings up memory....you say
>>>>> 
>>>>> "At some point the fourth ethic was
>>>>> dropped from the teaching of permaculture and that ethic, *reduction of*
>>>>> *population and consumerism*, was and is critical to our future path."
>>>>> 
>>>>> I too like yourself have issue with the diversion of the 3rd Ethic which
>>>>> has always been from the beginning "Share the Surplus" not the watered
>>> down
>>>>> version "Fair Share" which has an entirely different meaning
>>>>> 
>>>>> As you also say
>>>>> 
>>>>> " Not the watered down version of permaculture
>>>>> that is currently being flogged by to many incompetent teachers and
>>>>> practitioners but the version that I believe was envisioned by Bill
>>>>> Mollison's anger and David Holmgren's thoughtfulness"
>>>>> 
>>>>> I continue the challenge to re-right this ship which is sinking fast
>>>>> already listing badly, by plugging effort into the European Permaculture
>>>>> Teachers ( perma*teachers*.*eu )* series of conferences. IMO it is
>>> critical
>>>>> to get a recognised firm curricula (
>>>>> http://www.permaculture.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/PDC-Outline.pdf)
>>>>> as one basis for teaching. Then of course build an entity to develop and
>>>>> support the standards to maintain all this.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Scotty, I'd like to see your paragraph on the detailed explanation of
>>> the
>>>>> 3rd & 4th ethic, to share amongst all
>>>>> 
>>>>> Warm ones ...
>>>>> Kia ora
>>>>> 
>>>>> [image: Picture]
>>>>> *Steve Hart*
>>>>> Ecology Architect
>>>>> skype: stevenlawrencehart
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> permaculture mailing list
>>>>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list
>>> maintenance:
>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>>>>> message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
>>>>> Google message archive search:
>>>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
>>>>> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
>>>>> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
>>>>> http://www.ipermie.net
>>>>> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
>>>>> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
>>>>> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
>>> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated
>>> elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced
>>> nature-compatible human habitat
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> permaculture mailing list
>>>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list
>>> maintenance:
>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>>>> message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
>>>> Google message archive search:
>>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
>>>> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
>>>> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
>>>> http://www.ipermie.net
>>>> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
>>>> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
>>>> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
>>> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated
>>> elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced
>>> nature-compatible human habitat
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> permaculture mailing list
>>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list
>>> maintenance:
>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>>> message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
>>> Google message archive search:
>>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
>>> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
>>> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
>>> http://www.ipermie.net
>>> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
>>> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
>>> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
>>> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated
>>> elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced
>>> nature-compatible human habitat
>>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list 
> maintenance:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> Google message archive search:
> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> http://www.ipermie.net
> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech pioneers 
> -- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated elements 
> for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced nature-compatible 
> human habitat 
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list 
> maintenance:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> Google message archive search:
> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> http://www.ipermie.net
> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech pioneers 
> -- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated elements 
> for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced nature-compatible 
> human habitat