permaculture

[Michael Pilarski <friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com>]

Toby, Thanks for the comments.

Your reply reminds me of one way the ethics are stated.

1. Care of Earth
2. Care of People
3. Dispersal of surplus to above ends. 


 Of course each of these ethics are unpacked in great detail during a pdc. 


Michael "Skeeter" Pilarski



On Monday, March 24, 2014 8:56 AM, Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com> 
wrote:
 
When I talk about the 3rd ethic, I give a brief history, saying that I've 
never found "share the surplus" able to get at the heart of it--we're not 
just giving it away randomly. I tell classes that I prefer "return (or 
reinvest) the surplus" as it suggests that we need to give the yield back to 
the systems--the earth and the people--that provided it, and this 
reinvestment is what supports them. I have a graphic with arrows going to and 
from 3 circles, the circles being  earth, people, and surplus, showing that 
all three support one another.

And I also mention the original "set limits" idea.

Thanks, Robin, for the specifics of who said what when. Skeeter, thanks, too.

Toby
http://patternliteracy.com


On Mar 24, 2014, at 7:15 AM, Michael Pilarski <friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com> 
wrote:

> Here is what I tell my pdc students when the 3rd ethic is discussed.  I 
> mention all the permutations of the 3rd ethic, including the term "fair 
> share".  Most people are anthropocentric and at first hearing the term 
> think of sharing among humans.  I point out that fair share also applies to 
> homo sapiens sharing the planet in a fair way with all the other species we 
> share the planet with. Which is where the limits to growth and consumption 
> comes in.  
> 
> Humans are using too much of the planet for their own ends and have pushed 
> many species to extinction or the edge of extinction.  We need to make more 
> room for the other species to survive and thrive.  We need to use less of 
> the land for agriculture and grazing our domestic livestock.  We need to 
> fish less of the world's oceans.  We need to walk more lightly as a 
> species.  
> 
> Permaculture gives us land use patterns that are more able to accommodate 
> wild creatures in the same space as humans.  
> 
> 
>  Michael Pilarski
> 
> 
> 
> On Monday, March 24, 2014 7:37 AM, Chris Carnevale 
> <c.s.carnevale@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> This is invaluable information to be having documented. There was a 
> thread on this listserv not long ago about the third ethic and I 
> remember reading someone say that "fair share" was adopted just to fit 
> into the rhyming scheme of the other two. After reading that it is 
> descended from "/to recognise and establish limits to growth and 
> consumption and disperse surplus to support care of the earth and care 
> of people,"/ "fair share" seems to be a much better distillation of the 
> idea than simply "share the surplus." Robyn, I believe your 
> interpretation of implications is correct. And Steve, I agree the two 
> phrases have two very different meanings.
> 
> Chris Carnevale
> 
> 
> 
> On 3/24/14, 2:10 AM, Steve Hart wrote:
>> Thanks Robyn for a clarification. My experience in observing the many
>> teaching patterns wherever I go is that there is as I've been beating on
>> about like Scotty far too many willing teachers who offered a very
>> distorted perspective to this 3rd ethic. With the tremendous work being
>> done by the collective of energies around Europe in the EPT series of
>> conferences much of this clarification is vital and desperately needed. I
>> have used primarily your curriculum as a basis for all levels of teaching
>> but do personally enjoy elements of the original curricula which I once had
>> from my course in 1981 and follow up courses with Bill, Max and Lea. I also
>> like Skeeta and Scotty perhaps resonate with the original. To me "Share of
>> Surplus" and "Fair Share" have two totally different meanings.
>> 
>> Perhaps a full paper on the 3rd ethic will help considerably to support the
>> best dissemination of the subject into the new teaching world. ...Steve 
>> Hart
>> 
>> 
>> On 24 March 2014 05:39, Robyn Francis <robyn@permaculture.com.au> wrote:
>> 
>>> The PDC outline in the download is a bit different from the original and
>>> unfortunate that it doesn't acknowledge the source, authors, date or
>>> include the preamble. I do have a copy somewhere of the original document
>>> which I'm trying to find in my too numerous archives. I've found the
>>> original Arid Zones PDC Handbook by Bill and it seems some of this has 
>>> been
>>> incorporated into Scott's edited version "PDC Outline". The original PDC
>>> Handbook as issued by The Permaculture Institute (Australia) was written 
>>> by
>>> Bill Mollison, Andrew Jeeves and Reny Slay.
>>> 
>>> Re Third Ethic, what Bill taught in the courses I did and co-taught with
>>> him in the 80s & early 90s, was " to recognise and establish limits to
>>> growth and consumption and disperse surplus to support care of the earth
>>> and care of people".  Bill had a habit of rephrasing this third ethic and
>>> also his pc principles, so there's many different versions, which can be
>>> somewhat confusing.
>>> 
>>> I have only every heard Bill talk of three ethics, not four.  There are
>>> some permies trying to introduce a fourth ethic "Spirit Care" but
>>> personally don't support this idea, as it nests within the first two - 
>>> i.e.
>>> providing for peoples material and non-material needs
>>> 
>>> Under the catch cry "Fair Share" i introduce the first part of ethic 3,
>>> limits to growth and consumption, in the context of designing and living
>>> within our ecological footprint (to use/consume more than our share is
>>> 'unfair' and effectively stealing from future generations, as well as
>>> contributing to current inequity in the world) and that all natural, and
>>> subsequently human, systems have limits, then second to this comes the
>>> ethical sharing of surpluses  we might generate.
>>> 
>>> Robyn
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 24/03/2014, at 4:39 AM, Toby Hemenway wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Couple of questions:
>>>> 
>>>> Who wrote the handbook that LL linked to at
>>>> 
>>>> Permaculture Institute/Scott Pittman: Publication2 - PDC-Outline.pdf
>>>> http://www.permaculture.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/PDC-Outline.pdf
>>>> 
>>>> This has been around in various forms for many years, and this is a
>>> revised version of the one I got in 1994. I've never seen an author's name
>>> on it.
>>>> Second question: What is the 3rd ethic? In the Designer's Manual on P 2
>>> Mollison says that the 3rd ethic is
>>>> "3. Setting limits to population and consumption: By governing our own
>>> needs, we can set resources aside to further the above principles" [Bill 
>>> is
>>> referring to ethics 1 and 2, care of earth and care of people--which he
>>> confusingly calls "principles."]
>>>> So--how did "set limits to population and consumption" get turned into
>>> "share the surplus"? Bill muddled the issue by adding "we can set 
>>> resources
>>> aside" to his "set limits" injunction, but still--how did we drop the 
>>> whole
>>> "set limits" piece so that so many people think that the 3rd ethic has
>>> always been "share the surplus" when it never has been that, according to
>>> Bill?
>>>> Toby
>>>> http://patternliteracy.com
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Mar 23, 2014, at 1:17 AM, Steve Hart <stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>>> Thanks for that Scotty
>>>>> 
>>>>> This brings up memory....you say
>>>>> 
>>>>> "At some point the fourth ethic was
>>>>> dropped from the teaching of permaculture and that ethic, *reduction of*
>>>>> *population and consumerism*, was and is critical to our future path."
>>>>> 
>>>>> I too like yourself have issue with the diversion of the 3rd Ethic which
>>>>> has always been from the beginning "Share the Surplus" not the watered
>>> down
>>>>> version "Fair Share" which has an entirely different meaning
>>>>> 
>>>>> As you also say
>>>>> 
>>>>> " Not the watered down version of permaculture
>>>>> that is currently being flogged by to many incompetent teachers and
>>>>> practitioners but the version that I believe was envisioned by Bill
>>>>> Mollison's anger and David Holmgren's thoughtfulness"
>>>>> 
>>>>> I continue the challenge to re-right this ship which is sinking fast
>>>>> already listing badly, by plugging effort into the European Permaculture
>>>>> Teachers ( perma*teachers*.*eu )* series of conferences. IMO it is
>>> critical
>>>>> to get a recognised firm curricula (
>>>>> http://www.permaculture.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/PDC-Outline.pdf)
>>>>> as one basis for teaching. Then of course build an entity to develop and
>>>>> support the standards to maintain all this.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Scotty, I'd like to see your paragraph on the detailed explanation of
>>> the
>>>>> 3rd & 4th ethic, to share amongst all
>>>>> 
>>>>> Warm ones ...
>>>>> Kia ora
>>>>> 
>>>>> [image: Picture]
>>>>> *Steve Hart*
>>>>> Ecology Architect
>>>>> skype: stevenlawrencehart
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>>>> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
>>> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated
>>> elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced
>>> nature-compatible human habitat
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>>> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
>>> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated
>>> elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced
>>> nature-compatible human habitat
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>> 
>> 
> 
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> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech pioneers 
> -- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated elements 
> for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced nature-compatible 
> human habitat 
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> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> http://www.ipermie.net
> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech pioneers 
> -- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated elements 
> for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced nature-compatible 
> human habitat 

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Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech pioneers 
-- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated elements for 
synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced nature-compatible human 
habitat
>From jasongerhardt@gmail.com  Mon Mar 24 14:23:12 2014
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This is such an important conversation to be having, and I enjoy hearing
all of you elders speak. It's somewhat refreshing to know that Mollison
wavered in his teaching of these topics. It certainly has seemed that way
from my experience in the field over the last decade. It means there is
room for improvement, and let me make it clear now that I find many of the
changes to the curriculum these days very far from improvements. The third
ethic does seem like it could use a manifesto on the history of it, where
it has gone, what it means at it's deepest, etc. I'm secretly hoping one of
our respected elders will take that up and disseminate it widely.

On the third ethic, I found something Scott Pittman taught me to be a very
valuable contribution. He said, and this is a total paraphrase, that the
third ethic (and all the ethics) can be looked at like design parameters.
For example with the third ethic, we can look at it like a challenge to
reinvest all surpluses from the systems we design back into the first two
ethics. So this would include time, money, shit, energies, materials, etc.
A simplistic example is waste water from a shower; that water waste is a
surplus that can be reinvested in growing fruits tree in the landscape to
feed people, and with all the ecological services that a tree performs
(then you have to design pathways for the surpluses from that system). This
kind of goes back to an earlier conversation on this list of designing
better webs and cycles to maximize energy potential. I like this view of
the third ethic because it frames it in a design context. I'm not
suggesting it fully encapsulates the third ethic, and neither was Scott,
but I see it as adding an important perspective.

Part of the issue with the ethics, in my experience, is that they have been
taken out of the context of design. They are being used to create a mantra
for a new culture of sorts, hence the desire for some to want them to
rhyme, as it makes a nice rally call. I find these attempts look more like
CULT than culture. The reality is design is the broad context for every
topic in permaculture.

This reminds me of something Larry Santoyo said in a podcast last year. The
interviewer asked him something like what is your 10 second permaculture
elevator speech. Larry replied, "I'd get the fu@* off that elevator". We
can't encapsulate an entire design approach to all ecological systems
(humans included) in 10 seconds. It serves to diminish whatever we would
say to a sound bite, which is actually a disservice to the term and the
person we're talking too. I see the third ethic in this light. We
especially can't even approach a topic like setting limits to population in
a sound bite. The third ethic is too complex to reduce. All of them are,
really.

However we wrap up any permaculture topic in a phrase, it will be
insufficient. Like Michael and Toby basically said, we can cover all of the
angles that have been discussed in this thread in our teaching of the
ethics. We have to provide as much context as possible. I find my students
are much more interested in the hard and complex truth than in cute
mnemonic devices that neatly dumb-down a topic.

Jason
--
PO Box 4315
Boulder, CO 80306
720-496-9744