permaculture

[Michael Pilarski <friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com>]

Here are answers to some of the questions posed in this thread.

The pdc curriculum which is published on Scott Pittman's website is the 
compilation of two of Mollison's curriculums. 1) Bill Mollison's first 
curriculum.  It has not changed since 1982 when I got a copy for my first 
course.  2) Bill Mollison's Dryland PDC curriculum.  I took the first course 
that Bill ever taught with the Drylands curriculum, which was in 1986 in 
eastern Washington state.  Those two curricula were lumped together, which is 
why it is so heavy on drylands.  

The 3rd pc ethic was taught to me in 1982 as "Dispersal of Surplus". I do not 
recall whether the byline "Set limits to population and consumption" was 
introduced to me in 1982 or later.  Since then many people have stated the 
3rd ethic as "Fair Share".

I think that Dispersal of Surplus as an ethic sounded too communist for many 
people and evoked images of dismantling the estates of millionaires and 
billionaires.  And Bill, being the revolutionary he is, may have intended it 
that way.  


Michael "Skeeter" Pilarski
Permaculture - Wildcrafting - Medicinal Herbs & Seeds


Sign up for my newsletter at www.friendsofthetrees.net
www.facebook.com/michael.skeeter.pilarski




On Sunday, March 23, 2014 11:40 AM, Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com> 
wrote:
 
Couple of questions:

Who wrote the handbook that LL linked to at

Permaculture Institute/Scott Pittman: Publication2 - PDC-Outline.pdf
http://www.permaculture.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/PDC-Outline.pdf

This has been around in various forms for many years, and this is a revised 
version of the one I got in 1994. I've never seen an author's name on it. 

Second question: What is the 3rd ethic? In the Designer's Manual on P 2 
Mollison says that the 3rd ethic is

"3. Setting limits to population and consumption: By governing our own needs, 
we can set resources aside to further the above principles" [Bill is 
referring to ethics 1 and 2, care of earth and care of people--which he 
confusingly calls "principles."]

So--how did "set limits to population and consumption" get turned into "share 
the surplus"? Bill muddled the issue by adding "we can set resources aside" 
to his "set limits" injunction, but still--how did we drop the whole "set 
limits" piece so that so many people think that the 3rd ethic has always been 
"share the surplus" when it never has been that, according to Bill?

Toby
http://patternliteracy.com


On Mar 23, 2014, at 1:17 AM, Steve Hart <stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks for that Scotty
> 
> This brings up memory....you say
> 
> "At some point the fourth ethic was
> dropped from the teaching of permaculture and that ethic, *reduction of*
> *population and consumerism*, was and is critical to our future path."
> 
> I too like yourself have issue with the diversion of the 3rd Ethic which
> has always been from the beginning "Share the Surplus" not the watered down
> version "Fair Share" which has an entirely different meaning
> 
> As you also say
> 
> " Not the watered down version of permaculture
> that is currently being flogged by to many incompetent teachers and
> practitioners but the version that I believe was envisioned by Bill
> Mollison's anger and David Holmgren's thoughtfulness"
> 
> I continue the challenge to re-right this ship which is sinking fast
> already listing badly, by plugging effort into the European Permaculture
> Teachers ( perma*teachers*.*eu )* series of conferences. IMO it is critical
> to get a recognised firm curricula (
> http://www.permaculture.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/PDC-Outline.pdf )
> as one basis for teaching. Then of course build an entity to develop and
> support the standards to maintain all this.
> 
> Scotty, I'd like to see your paragraph on the detailed explanation of the
> 3rd & 4th ethic, to share amongst all
> 
> Warm ones ...
> Kia ora
> 
> [image: Picture]
> *Steve Hart*
> Ecology Architect
> skype: stevenlawrencehart
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
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> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> http://www.ipermie.net
> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech pioneers 
> -- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated elements 
> for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced nature-compatible 
> human habitat 

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How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
http://www.ipermie.net
Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech pioneers 
-- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated elements for 
synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced nature-compatible human 
habitat
>From robyn@permaculture.com.au  Mon Mar 24 01:01:19 2014
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Subject: Re: [permaculture] The 4th Ethic
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The PDC outline in the download is a bit different from the original and 
unfortunate that it doesn't acknowledge the source, authors, date or include 
the preamble. I do have a copy somewhere of the original document which I'm 
trying to find in my too numerous archives. I've found the original Arid 
Zones PDC Handbook by Bill and it seems some of this has been incorporated 
into Scott's edited version "PDC Outline". The original PDC Handbook as 
issued by The Permaculture Institute (Australia) was written by Bill 
Mollison, Andrew Jeeves and Reny Slay. 

Re Third Ethic, what Bill taught in the courses I did and co-taught with him 
in the 80s & early 90s, was " to recognise and establish limits to growth and 
consumption and disperse surplus to support care of the earth and care of 
people".  Bill had a habit of rephrasing this third ethic and also his pc 
principles, so there's many different versions, which can be somewhat 
confusing.

I have only every heard Bill talk of three ethics, not four.  There are some 
permies trying to introduce a fourth ethic "Spirit Care" but personally don't 
support this idea, as it nests within the first two - i.e. providing for 
peoples material and non-material needs

Under the catch cry "Fair Share" i introduce the first part of ethic 3, 
limits to growth and consumption, in the context of designing and living 
within our ecological footprint (to use/consume more than our share is 
'unfair' and effectively stealing from future generations, as well as 
contributing to current inequity in the world) and that all natural, and 
subsequently human, systems have limits, then second to this comes the 
ethical sharing of surpluses  we might generate.

Robyn


On 24/03/2014, at 4:39 AM, Toby Hemenway wrote:

> Couple of questions:
> 
> Who wrote the handbook that LL linked to at
> 
> Permaculture Institute/Scott Pittman: Publication2 - PDC-Outline.pdf
> http://www.permaculture.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/PDC-Outline.pdf
> 
> This has been around in various forms for many years, and this is a revised 
> version of the one I got in 1994. I've never seen an author's name on it. 
> 
> Second question: What is the 3rd ethic? In the Designer's Manual on P 2 
> Mollison says that the 3rd ethic is
> 
> "3. Setting limits to population and consumption: By governing our own 
> needs, we can set resources aside to further the above principles" [Bill is 
> referring to ethics 1 and 2, care of earth and care of people--which he 
> confusingly calls "principles."]
> 
> So--how did "set limits to population and consumption" get turned into 
> "share the surplus"? Bill muddled the issue by adding "we can set resources 
> aside" to his "set limits" injunction, but still--how did we drop the whole 
> "set limits" piece so that so many people think that the 3rd ethic has 
> always been "share the surplus" when it never has been that, according to 
> Bill?
> 
> Toby
> http://patternliteracy.com
> 
> 
> On Mar 23, 2014, at 1:17 AM, Steve Hart <stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com> 
> wrote:
> 
>> Thanks for that Scotty
>> 
>> This brings up memory....you say
>> 
>> "At some point the fourth ethic was
>> dropped from the teaching of permaculture and that ethic, *reduction of*
>> *population and consumerism*, was and is critical to our future path."
>> 
>> I too like yourself have issue with the diversion of the 3rd Ethic which
>> has always been from the beginning "Share the Surplus" not the watered down
>> version "Fair Share" which has an entirely different meaning
>> 
>> As you also say
>> 
>> " Not the watered down version of permaculture
>> that is currently being flogged by to many incompetent teachers and
>> practitioners but the version that I believe was envisioned by Bill
>> Mollison's anger and David Holmgren's thoughtfulness"
>> 
>> I continue the challenge to re-right this ship which is sinking fast
>> already listing badly, by plugging effort into the European Permaculture
>> Teachers ( perma*teachers*.*eu )* series of conferences. IMO it is critical
>> to get a recognised firm curricula (
>> http://www.permaculture.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/PDC-Outline.pdf )
>> as one basis for teaching. Then of course build an entity to develop and
>> support the standards to maintain all this.
>> 
>> Scotty, I'd like to see your paragraph on the detailed explanation of the
>> 3rd & 4th ethic, to share amongst all
>> 
>> Warm ones ...
>> Kia ora
>> 
>> [image: Picture]
>> *Steve Hart*
>> Ecology Architect
>> skype: stevenlawrencehart
>> _______________________________________________
>> permaculture mailing list
>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list 
>> maintenance:
>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>> message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
>> Google message archive search:
>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
>> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
>> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
>> http://www.ipermie.net
>> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
>> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
>> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech 
>> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated 
>> elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced 
>> nature-compatible human habitat 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list 
> maintenance:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> Google message archive search:
> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> http://www.ipermie.net
> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech pioneers 
> -- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated elements 
> for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced nature-compatible 
> human habitat