permaculture

[Chris Carnevale <c.s.carnevale@gmail.com>]

This is invaluable information to be having documented. There was a 
thread on this listserv not long ago about the third ethic and I 
remember reading someone say that "fair share" was adopted just to fit 
into the rhyming scheme of the other two. After reading that it is 
descended from "/to recognise and establish limits to growth and 
consumption and disperse surplus to support care of the earth and care 
of people,"/ "fair share" seems to be a much better distillation of the 
idea than simply "share the surplus." Robyn, I believe your 
interpretation of implications is correct. And Steve, I agree the two 
phrases have two very different meanings.

Chris Carnevale


On 3/24/14, 2:10 AM, Steve Hart wrote:
> Thanks Robyn for a clarification. My experience in observing the many
> teaching patterns wherever I go is that there is as I've been beating on
> about like Scotty far too many willing teachers who offered a very
> distorted perspective to this 3rd ethic. With the tremendous work being
> done by the collective of energies around Europe in the EPT series of
> conferences much of this clarification is vital and desperately needed. I
> have used primarily your curriculum as a basis for all levels of teaching
> but do personally enjoy elements of the original curricula which I once had
> from my course in 1981 and follow up courses with Bill, Max and Lea. I also
> like Skeeta and Scotty perhaps resonate with the original. To me "Share of
> Surplus" and "Fair Share" have two totally different meanings.
>
> Perhaps a full paper on the 3rd ethic will help considerably to support the
> best dissemination of the subject into the new teaching world. ...Steve Hart
>
>
> On 24 March 2014 05:39, Robyn Francis <robyn@permaculture.com.au> wrote:
>
> > The PDC outline in the download is a bit different from the original and
> > unfortunate that it doesn't acknowledge the source, authors, date or
> > include the preamble. I do have a copy somewhere of the original document
> > which I'm trying to find in my too numerous archives. I've found the
> > original Arid Zones PDC Handbook by Bill and it seems some of this has been
> > incorporated into Scott's edited version "PDC Outline". The original PDC
> > Handbook as issued by The Permaculture Institute (Australia) was written by
> > Bill Mollison, Andrew Jeeves and Reny Slay.
> >
> > Re Third Ethic, what Bill taught in the courses I did and co-taught with
> > him in the 80s & early 90s, was " to recognise and establish limits to
> > growth and consumption and disperse surplus to support care of the earth
> > and care of people".  Bill had a habit of rephrasing this third ethic and
> > also his pc principles, so there's many different versions, which can be
> > somewhat confusing.
> >
> > I have only every heard Bill talk of three ethics, not four.  There are
> > some permies trying to introduce a fourth ethic "Spirit Care" but
> > personally don't support this idea, as it nests within the first two - i.e.
> > providing for peoples material and non-material needs
> >
> > Under the catch cry "Fair Share" i introduce the first part of ethic 3,
> > limits to growth and consumption, in the context of designing and living
> > within our ecological footprint (to use/consume more than our share is
> > 'unfair' and effectively stealing from future generations, as well as
> > contributing to current inequity in the world) and that all natural, and
> > subsequently human, systems have limits, then second to this comes the
> > ethical sharing of surpluses  we might generate.
> >
> > Robyn
> >
> >
> > On 24/03/2014, at 4:39 AM, Toby Hemenway wrote:
> >
> > > Couple of questions:
> > >
> > > Who wrote the handbook that LL linked to at
> > >
> > > Permaculture Institute/Scott Pittman: Publication2 - PDC-Outline.pdf
> > > http://www.permaculture.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/PDC-Outline.pdf
> > >
> > > This has been around in various forms for many years, and this is a
> > revised version of the one I got in 1994. I've never seen an author's name
> > on it.
> > > Second question: What is the 3rd ethic? In the Designer's Manual on P 2
> > Mollison says that the 3rd ethic is
> > > "3. Setting limits to population and consumption: By governing our own
> > needs, we can set resources aside to further the above principles" [Bill is
> > referring to ethics 1 and 2, care of earth and care of people--which he
> > confusingly calls "principles."]
> > > So--how did "set limits to population and consumption" get turned into
> > "share the surplus"? Bill muddled the issue by adding "we can set resources
> > aside" to his "set limits" injunction, but still--how did we drop the whole
> > "set limits" piece so that so many people think that the 3rd ethic has
> > always been "share the surplus" when it never has been that, according to
> > Bill?
> > > Toby
> > > http://patternliteracy.com
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mar 23, 2014, at 1:17 AM, Steve Hart <stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > > Thanks for that Scotty
> > > >
> > > > This brings up memory....you say
> > > >
> > > > "At some point the fourth ethic was
> > > > dropped from the teaching of permaculture and that ethic, *reduction of*
> > > > *population and consumerism*, was and is critical to our future path."
> > > >
> > > > I too like yourself have issue with the diversion of the 3rd Ethic which
> > > > has always been from the beginning "Share the Surplus" not the watered
> > down
> > > > version "Fair Share" which has an entirely different meaning
> > > >
> > > > As you also say
> > > >
> > > > " Not the watered down version of permaculture
> > > > that is currently being flogged by to many incompetent teachers and
> > > > practitioners but the version that I believe was envisioned by Bill
> > > > Mollison's anger and David Holmgren's thoughtfulness"
> > > >
> > > > I continue the challenge to re-right this ship which is sinking fast
> > > > already listing badly, by plugging effort into the European Permaculture
> > > > Teachers ( perma*teachers*.*eu )* series of conferences. IMO it is
> > critical
> > > > to get a recognised firm curricula (
> > > > http://www.permaculture.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/PDC-Outline.pdf)
> > > > as one basis for teaching. Then of course build an entity to develop and
> > > > support the standards to maintain all this.
> > > >
> > > > Scotty, I'd like to see your paragraph on the detailed explanation of
> > the
> > > > 3rd & 4th ethic, to share amongst all
> > > >
> > > > Warm ones ...
> > > > Kia ora
> > > >
> > > > [image: Picture]
> > > > *Steve Hart*
> > > > Ecology Architect
> > > > skype: stevenlawrencehart
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > permaculture mailing list
> > > > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list
> > maintenance:
> > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > > > message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> > > > Google message archive search:
> > > > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > > > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > > > How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > > > http://www.ipermie.net
> > > > Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> > > > https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > > > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> > pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated
> > elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced
> > nature-compatible human habitat
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > permaculture mailing list
> > > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list
> > maintenance:
> > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > > message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> > > Google message archive search:
> > > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > > How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > > http://www.ipermie.net
> > > Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> > > https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> > pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated
> > elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced
> > nature-compatible human habitat
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > permaculture mailing list
> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list
> > maintenance:
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > message archives:  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/
> > Google message archive search:
> > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > http://www.ipermie.net
> > Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> > https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> > pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated
> > elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced
> > nature-compatible human habitat