permaculture

[Juan Manuel Burgos <wsknlahunmen@hotmail.com>]

> From: permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: permaculture Digest, Vol 134, Issue 4
> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Dear Holger

Couldn't agree more on this. I also came to the same realization, specially 
since i started my way as a permaculture facilitator. And also because i'm 
involved in several practices that bring forth this ultimate truth of the 
universe: the only constant is change itself

after thinking about this for quite a long time i ended up with the term 
"dinamiculture" (dinamicultura as i call it; being argentinian; and obvioulsy 
speaking spanish) for sure that may be the name of thi practice that future 
generations will use; having themselves realized that that everything changes 
constantly

when i read holmgrens book and started the last principle i waz looking 
forward to see what where zhis thoughts about this thing; and it expressed 
this idea also; but in different words; when he acknowledges that what wxhe 
shoulzd do rather than designing for sustainable managment of the land; is 
embracing the present and continous state of ever changing reality; so as to 
train our ability to cope with and have creative responses towards it

nevertheless; i personally feel that every one of us involved into 
permaculture should share this fact of the relativity of this "permanent 
culture" thing; so as to avoid this tendency for "cult permaculture" puting 
the stem and roots back into the permaculture flower

nice topic to continue sharing thoughts and impressions

im amazed and happyly participating in this emerging process of bringing back 
permaculture to earth; bursting the bubble of idyllic permacultue and start 
sharing experiences that put us on track towards succesfull managment of 
earth and all its common goods and resources (including human relationships 
and everything it implies)

Let's continue with this journey, nice harvest ahead for the beneffit of al 
beings
greetings from argentina!

ps: a little article i wrote about this thing of "dinamiculture" in spanish 
http://anandaaikenmultiespacio.wordpress.com/2013/11/01/escritos-diseno-pruebas-piloto-experimentacion-retroalimentacion-y-vuelta-a-empezar-la-importancia-del-diseno-consciente-en-el-desarrollo-dinamicultural-de-un-espacio-y-la-vida-misma/

Juan Manuel Burgos
Integral permaculture designerAnanda Aiken Multiespacio permacultural
http://anandaaikenmultiespacio.wordpress.com/
> Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 12:01:25 -0500
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> Today's Topics:
> 
>    1. Re: Impermanence & permaculture (Christian Skiba)
>    2. Re: Impermanence & Permaculture (Mark Feineigle)
>    3. Re: Impermanence & Permaculture (Jason Gerhardt)
>    4. Re: Impermanence & Permaculture (georg parlow)
>    5. Re: Impermanence & Permaculture (Lawrence London)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2014 19:45:40 +0100
> From: Christian Skiba <c.skiba@gmx.de>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Impermanence & permaculture
> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Message-ID: <53161F54.9020801@gmx.de>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
> 
> 
> Maturana wrote:
> Living systems are organized in a causal circular process, which, however,
> allows an evolutionary change in the way how the circular process is 
> organized
> but that does not allow the loss of the circular process itself. 
> (Biology of Cognition, 1970)
> 
> I think this is the permanence of permaculture: trying to make living 
> systems following
> the model of nature whose principles will never change.
> And something else: the ways, solutions and tools we use may change but 
> not the target or the ethics.
> 
> Greetings
> Christian
> 
> 
> Am 03.03.2014 15:51, schrieb Chris Carnevale:
> > You can also think about it as a culture or agriculture that permanently
> > follows the ethics of earth care, people care, and fair share. Similar
> > to how within permaculture methodology there are many tools, techniques,
> > and strategies that can be employed in implementation (and can change
> > over time within a single system), permanent cultures may have different
> > expressions of the ethics, varying from one culture to another or
> > varying over time within the same culture.
> >
> > Chris Carnevale
> > Charleston, South Carolina
> >
> >
> > On 3/3/14, 12:06 AM, Darrell E. Frey wrote:
> >> Well, indeed change is the only constant. I have never thought  the
> >> permanent part of permanent culture meant a homgeneous and unchanging
> >> culture. Rather it is more in the spirit of the our relationship to our
> >> planet, to live in each bioregion, and relate to the entire planet from
> >> our bioregions, in a manner that  nurtures and regenerates the whole.
> >> Permanent as opposed an exploitive downward spiral, regenerative as
> >> opposed to degrading . A worthy goal to work towards it would seem.
> >>
> >> I would hope the seeds you planted in Mexico have taken root and will
> >> flourish. Best wishes
> >>
> >> Darrell E. Frey
> >> Three Sisters Farm
> >> defrey@bioshelter.com
> >> www.bioshelter.com
> >>
> >> On Sun, 02 Mar 2014 21:47:37 -0600, Holger Hieronimi
> >> <holger@tierramor.org> wrote:
> >> Hello all-
> >>> saludos desde M?xico
> >>>
> >>> I wonder how PC Activists respond to one of the most interesting
> >>> paradoxes in Permaculture, expressed in the very name. I ask you:
> >>>
> >>> How can we promote Permaculture, presented as a contraction of
> >>> "permanent culture" (originally permanent agriculture),
> >>> knowing that in the universe there is one basic fact (maybe even
> >>> law): NOTHING IS PERMANENT
> >>> ???
> >>>
> >>> More importantly: Nothing is more impermanent than culture. We all
> >>> know that culture is subject of constant change & adaption to
> >>> changing circumstances
> >>>
> >>> I think, this is an interesting contradiction, best expressed in
> >>> David Holmgens 12th design principle: "Creatively use and respond to
> >>> change"
> >>>
> >>> Its not only that I`m involved somewhat in Zen practice... its a
> >>> constant experience all PC designers & practitioners have, working
> >>> with nature-
> >>> Now, with the reality of climate change, and all the other political,
> >>> economic and cultural changes happening right now in the world we`re
> >>> living in-
> >>> change is more up to date than never
> >>>
> >>> However, its also a recent experience I have made in our PermaCulture
> >>> project:
> >>> For 12 years now, we have been developing a site in Michoac?n/
> >>> M?xico with PC Principles (see documentation of our work, with fotos
> >>> and comentary - in spanish- :
> >>> http://www.tierramor.org/GranjaTierramor/granjatierramor.htm#linx).
> >>> Now it seems that we have to leave the site for political, economic &
> >>> security reasons: In thos very moment, our state is in the focus of
> >>> the drug war, mainly fuelled by US dollars & arms...difficult to do
> >>> courses or whatever in this environment-
> >>> Allthough our site, better known as "Granja Tierramor" (together with
> >>> the whole project), has been, for years now , an important
> >>> demonstration and learning site for permaculture principles &
> >>> practices, it seems that we`ll have to leave the place soon.
> >>> Things have been changing rapidly here...too fast, it seems, for us
> >>> to respond creatively-
> >>>
> >>> Nothing is permanent!
> >>> Not even permaculture....
> >>> Maybe we should call it "ChangeCulture"?
> >>>
> >>> -- Holger Hieronimi -holger@tierramor.org
> >>> TIERRAMOR - Dise?o Integrado
> >>> www.tierramor.org
> >>> Dise?o de sistemas ecol?gicos
> >>> Consultas y asesor?as
> >>> Facilitaci?n de conferencias, seminarios, cursos y talleres
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
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> >>> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> >>> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> >>> http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> >>> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> >>> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> >>> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> >>> integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
> >>> enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> >> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> >> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> >> http://www.ipermie.net
> >> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> >> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> >> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech 
> >> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with 
> >> integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and 
> >> enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
> > _______________________________________________
> > permaculture mailing list
> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list 
> > maintenance:
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
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> > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > http://www.ipermie.net
> > Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> > https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech 
> > pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated 
> > elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced 
> > nature-compatible human habitat
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 16:30:19 -0500
> From: Mark Feineigle <mfeineigle@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Impermanence & Permaculture
> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Message-ID:
>       <CAEvg6H7ODeVxKh=HArDjcZJXbc2wynYhRkGAaMGEmPr26o5rNg@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> 
> First off, this is not meant as aggression toward anyone, but I feel
> someone has to say it.
> 
>  What is the point of this thread? It isn't a call for solidarity (which I
> would stand in). It isn't a deconstruction of the drug war. It is crying
> into the abyss because someone got dealt a raw hand. It doesn't even say
> WHAT is happening. Are you being threatened? Can you not pay your
> (essential) bills? Is your region being evacuated/eminent domain? Are you
> choosing to leave because you are (rightfully) scared? We can't offer any
> advice if we don't know what the exact problem is.
> 
>  Then the associating permaculture, negatively, with impermanence. How does
> asking unanswerable philosophical questions A.) get the land back, B.) stop
> the drug war, or C.) help the permaculture community? And... everyone
> chimes in because we all love talking about philosophy.
> 
>  This is another divisive thread that does nothing but distract from real
> issues. Whether it is an alphabet soup agency behind it, or just some
> person who is caught up in being the center of the world... same results:
> wasted time while permaculture is trash-talked/defended on non-issues. We
> are all going to die. The sun is going to burn out. Why do we do anything?
> Are these "real" questions? Sure, but they do not belong on a permaculture
> list.
> 
>  "There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is
> striking at the root." -Thoreau
> 
>  The drug wars in Mexico exist because the USA LOVES cocaine, heroin, and
> their associated profits. The USA produces most of its own cannabis and
> methamphetamine (we have hit television *programming* to glorify it), but
> imports the rest. Ideally, the USA would stop consuming these drugs or
> decriminalize them to remove the ultra profits from the supply chain
> running through Mexico.
> 
>  There are many drug cartels in Mexico (and all over, check out the Afghan
> poppy fields) vying for a piece of the profit pie. This competition
> complicates everything. The USA's Eric Holder decided that giving money and
> guns via Operation Fast and Furious to the Sinaloa Cartel would allow them
> to dispatch the competing cartels (The enemy of my enemy is my friend.) and
> streamline the supply chain with a monopoly - completely disregarding the
> escalation we have seen.
> 
>  If you want to stop the drug wars in Mexico, you're going to need to shoot
> the correct target, the USA/NATO MIC/IMF Empire. My suggestion is to
> disengage the thieves' economy on all non-essential functions. As others
> have said: expect things to get worse before they get better.
> 
>  "One may miss the mark by aiming too high as too low." -Fuller
> 
>  As for culture not being "permanent"... I'd say the Australian Abos,
> American Indians, Maya, Bedouin, and many more had long cultural lives.
> That is, until they ran into the Empire de jour. Cultures change the same
> way trees change as they grow, slowly, in a "natural" way. Ever since Rome
> (likely before), cultures have been changing (assimilate or die) at the
> barrel of a gun.
> 
>  -Mark Feineigle
> 
>  PS - The TierrAmor project looks awesome. Great work!
> 
> PPS - Call to action for more black sheep, please.
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 17:57:22 -0700
> From: Jason Gerhardt <jasongerhardt@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Impermanence & Permaculture
> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Message-ID:
>       <CADEhrOkC3yrgOW3QH8a1vxzhMf=2p3vivrgF5e5TKnmg9CZLBA@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> 
> Mark,
> "What is the point of this thread?" Well, I'm always interested in learning
> about the suffering of fellow permaculture journeyman. It informs my world,
> and I would like to see people have a place to share their story when they
> are feeling legitimately isolated and threatened, even if that means
> distracting oneself with something as mundane as dichotomy. I was happy to
> empathize at least.
> 
> So be it, dude, (aka-what's the point of you bitching about this),
> Jason
> 
> -- 
> PO Box 4355
> Boulder, CO 80306
> 720-496-9744
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 09:55:53 +0100
> From: georg parlow <g.parlow@gmx.at>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Impermanence & Permaculture
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <88CE7469-DDA9-4AF3-BF63-F69058BA1CA2@gmx.at>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
> 
> Good points in your post.
> 
> > What is the point of this thread?
> 
> IMHO this isn't just tech talk, but also a community. I want to know  
> what others are experiencing (and admittedly I also would prefer more  
> detail), it helps me to be emotionally connected. This is human, I  
> guess.
> 
> Best,
> Georg
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 11:32:21 -0500
> From: Lawrence London <lfljvenaura@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Impermanence & Permaculture
> To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID:
>       <CA+j2Q+AWAa1pS3YF22QNDE_igNOKLZ=7oSYo=fbWviN0x+8_Tg@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> 
> On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 4:30 PM, Mark Feineigle <mfeineigle@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > First off, this is not meant as aggression toward anyone, but I feel
> > someone has to say it.
> >
> >  What is the point of this thread? It isn't a call for solidarity (which I
> > would stand in). It isn't a deconstruction of the drug war. It is crying
> > into the abyss because someone got dealt a raw hand. It doesn't even say
> > WHAT is happening. Are you being threatened? Can you not pay your
> > (essential) bills? Is your region being evacuated/eminent domain? Are you
> > choosing to leave because you are (rightfully) scared? We can't offer any
> > advice if we don't know what the exact problem is.
> >
> 
> Some background, a news source for Michoacan:
> 
> The Narco News Bulletin
> Reporting On the Drug War and Democracy From All America
> http://narconews.com/otroperiodismo/michoacan/en.html
> 
> My opinion, conspiracy speculations notwithstanding. Whoever can put this
> in their pipe and smoke it:
> "A kneejerk reaction from me would be to say that "The Cabal" sends in
> their team to disrupt local traditional agriculture in Mexico (and
> elsewhere) anywhere in the hinterland where local folks use their
> traditional food production and lifestyle systems to sustain themselves,
> survive and stay independent of foreign influences and their surrogates in
> Mexico; thus empowering themselves and reinforcing their ability to resist
> intrusions into their lands (often common lands [& btw, <an unnamed person>
> was using lawyers in Mexico to circumvent common land covenants on farmland
> land they were interested in purchasing, read: investment property, (prime
> farmland with water and housing and farm structures), thus taking yet more
> rural farmable land out of the reach of indigenous Mexicans who have
> traditionally used this land through a common ownership system for
> centuries. - 'cause they are rich foreigners who want to own more stuff no
> matter the costs to anyone else who might be affected adversely by their
> greed and lack of compassion]. This "team" I refer to consists consists of
> drug cartels and their activities and those who try to convince the public
> that they are fighting said drug cartels, i.e. Mex and US law enforcement
> (remember Fast and Furious?) and CIA or other related agencies (as they did
> in Chile - why not Mexico too, a ripe plum for the picking). Why does The
> Cabal do this? Assist multinational agribusiness corporations take over
> more food production, processing, distribution and sales within the
> vertically integrated agribusiness system they utilize, in Mexico and the
> US. More and more food comes from Mexico; with the drought in California
> large scale farming could increasingly happen in Mexico to meet needs of
> the US market.
> 
> Holger and his permaculture community have been directly affected by this,
> as I see it. Mere speculation I admit but it may be true to some degree.
> 
> The corruption boggles the mind. It exists in most of E/W Europe, Russia
> and the USA. Prime example in the US is the activities of Monsanto and
> similar associated agribusiness corporations.
> In corporate agriculture its increasingly about biotech, high tech digital
> farming, new and old types of all categories of pesticides and other
> synthesized materials used in chemical-dependant farming and large heavy
> automated-digitized-wireless complicated machinery and draining non
> renewable resources of the world to support this non sustainable form of
> food production, never local food production systems, natural and
> sustainable performed by local farmers and gardeners working within a vast
> detailed network of local and regional farms.
> 
> The Oligarchs. 60 billion $ have been removed from Ukraine by oligarchs,
> even more from Russia. What do they need? someplace secure to store their
> loot. Not in the US or Russia, too easy for their accounts to be frozen.
> So, where do they go? They go to countries where their loot will be safe
> and free from being frozen....why frozen" SANCTIONS. Notice UK, Germany,
> Switzerland, maybe France, maybe other countries (Austria?) who have not
> expressed interest in imposing economic sanctions on Russia. Listen to or
> read the H&N interview from yesterday.
> 
> Yesterday I heard an interview with a very sharp English gentleman in the
> Here and Now show on public radio. He pretty much nailed some of the
> root causes of the current crisis involving Russia, Ukraine and Crimea, UK,
> US and other western and eastern European countries. This is incredible
> work by
> Ben Judah. Here is the link to the podcast; you can listen to it online
> (replay March 4 H&N broadcast recording) or download it for later listening.
> 
> <>
> 
> Why Russia?s Not Worried About Western Sanctions
> http://hereandnow.wbur.org/2014/03/04/russia-west-relationship
> 
> Though some in the West wonder why Russia would risk its political and
> economic relationships with Western allies by invading Ukraine, political
> analyst and author *Ben Judah* says this should come as no surprise at all.
> 
> In fact, Judah maintains that Western countries, particularly those in
> Europe, may have more to lose than Russia does. With Russia investing
> billions of dollars in Western economies ? including real estate in Paris
> and London, and millions in European bank accounts ? Judah says Russian
> President Vladimir Putin is confident he has nothing to lose.
> 
> He speaks with *Here & Now? <http://hereandnow.wbur.org/>*s Robin Young.
> 
>    - Read Ben Judah?s piece in Politico, ?Why Russia No Longer Fears the
>    
> West?<http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/03/russia-vladimir-putin-the-west-104134_full.html#.UxYDbfldWSo>
> 
> 
> >  Then the associating permaculture, negatively, with impermanence. How 
> > does
> > asking unanswerable philosophical questions A.) get the land back, B.) 
> > stop
> > the drug war, or C.) help the permaculture community? And... everyone
> > chimes in because we all love talking about philosophy.
> >
> >
> 
> >  This is another divisive thread that does nothing but distract from real
> > issues. Whether it is an alphabet soup agency behind it, or just some
> > person who is caught up in being the center of the world... same results:
> > wasted time while permaculture is trash-talked/defended on non-issues. We
> > are all going to die. The sun is going to burn out. Why do we do anything?
> > Are these "real" questions? Sure, but they do not belong on a permaculture
> > list.
> >
> >
> It is neither divisive or distracting. It is someone who is part of the
> global permaculture community reaching out to
> the rest of us, wherever we may live. Holger's post was extremely
> important. I, for one, took a much closer look at his world class work in
> Mexico because of this.
> This list EXISTS for permaculturists like Holger and those doing similar
> work and all of use who support this work. My thoughts are 100% consistent
> with those expressed by Jason, Georg and Christian.
> 
> 
> >  "There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is
> > striking at the root." -Thoreau
> >
> >  The drug wars in Mexico exist because the USA LOVES cocaine, heroin, and
> > their associated profits. The USA produces most of its own cannabis and
> > methamphetamine (we have hit television *programming* to glorify it), but
> > imports the rest. Ideally, the USA would stop consuming these drugs or
> > decriminalize them to remove the ultra profits from the supply chain
> > running through Mexico.
> >
> >  There are many drug cartels in Mexico (and all over, check out the Afghan
> > poppy fields) vying for a piece of the profit pie. This competition
> > complicates everything. The USA's Eric Holder decided that giving money 
> > and
> > guns via Operation Fast and Furious to the Sinaloa Cartel would allow them
> > to dispatch the competing cartels (The enemy of my enemy is my friend.) 
> > and
> > streamline the supply chain with a monopoly - completely disregarding the
> > escalation we have seen.
> >
> >  If you want to stop the drug wars in Mexico, you're going to need to 
> > shoot
> > the correct target, the USA/NATO MIC/IMF Empire. My suggestion is to
> > disengage the thieves' economy on all non-essential functions. As others
> > have said: expect things to get worse before they get better.
> >
> >  "One may miss the mark by aiming too high as too low." -Fuller
> >
> >  As for culture not being "permanent"... I'd say the Australian Abos,
> > American Indians, Maya, Bedouin, and many more had long cultural lives.
> > That is, until they ran into the Empire de jour. Cultures change the same
> > way trees change as they grow, slowly, in a "natural" way. Ever since Rome
> > (likely before), cultures have been changing (assimilate or die) at the
> > barrel of a gun.
> >
> >  -Mark Feineigle
> >
> >  PS - The TierrAmor project looks awesome. Great work!
> >
> > PPS - Call to action for more black sheep, please.
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> 
> 
> Very excellent post, Mark. Thanks for going to the trouble of posting it.
> This indirectly shows great support for Holger and his community and their
> current situation.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> LL
> -- 
> Lawrence F. London
> lfljvenaura@gmail.com
> http://www.avantgeared.com
> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> Skype: lawrence.f.london
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
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> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> http://www.ipermie.net 
> Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech pioneers 
> -- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated elements 
> for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced nature-compatible 
> human habitat 
> 
> End of permaculture Digest, Vol 134, Issue 4
> ********************************************