permaculture

[Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>]

My view is this. There is an ideal of a perfect permaculture site that has no 
waste or pollution, doesn't use anything non renewable or toxic, is totally 
fair economically, is designed to facilitate spiritual, emotional and 
physical well being of people while protecting the environment completely, 
true cost accounting, doesn't use anything from any source that is committing 
destruction on the earth. This site would also be spilling over in abundance 
for everything living in the system and thriving. I personally don't know of 
any site like that, though some come pretty close. 

On the other hand, there is the existing scene which is abysmal, in this 
country and most others, compared to the ideal. Pretty much the opposite of 
everything described above. The question is - how do we get from where we are 
(the abyss) to where we want to go? That is the process, and we are all on 
that path somewhere or other. I think it is very difficult to judge people's 
progress on that path because there is so much there to deal with. The whole 
invisible structure element, such as work on oneself and one's character, for 
instance, is all part of the process. 

Is Monsanto on that path? I would say they are not moving toward an ideal as 
described above. I believe that only through a whole lot of social, legal, 
etc, pressure would they move toward that, because they think they are 
"winning" doing what they're doing. I would love to be proven wrong about 
that, but that is what I've personally observed about them.  

I would like to draw a distinction between Monsanto and us, by observing that 
Monsanto's belief that they are "sustainable" is hallucinatory. It has no 
relationship to reality by any standards of actual observation. Their 
scientists have to lie to come to that conclusion and omit all kinds of 
information and pretend it isn't there. On some level, I would bet that they 
know they are lying, but humans have a pretty large capacity to lie to 
themselves as well as others when it "serves" them.  

But using the concept above - of existing scene making progress toward an 
ideal, if Monsanto has any change toward the better, it should be 
acknowledged. They feed their employees organic food! That may be a doorway. 
At least some of their employees might be capable and willing to see the 
irony in that and question some of the BS. Ford may be a better example 
because they are doing more to try. Their wetlands system is pretty darn 
good. That can be acknowledged. OK, good, they did that. What is the next 
step? If we can get agreement on the ideal - as above - zero waste, zero 
pollution, net regeneration of ecosystems, real fair distribution of wealth, 
humane working conditions, etc, then we can measure ourselves and others 
against that, maybe not from the viewpoint of "judgement", but from the 
viewpoint of 'OK, what is my next step to move toward that?"  OK, Ford, great 
on your wetlands, now what is next? You aren't there yet, keep moving. It's 
all part
 of the process, as Larry Santoyo says. As long as people are sincerely 
moving along on that process and making real progress, great! Let's help them 
along, if we can. It takes time, energy, effort, and sometimes an external 
viewpoint or a kick in the pants to move from the abyss to the heights. How 
can we help each other make that next step? 

To me, ethics is a movement toward the ideal. If I'm not moving toward that, 
my life is not ethical. That is my personal philosophy and I don't expect 
others to agree or adhere to that viewpoint. It is useful to me, to determine 
how ethical I'm being at any given time. If I'm taking obvious and concrete 
action to move toward that, not just for myself, but for others and the 
earth, then I'm being ethical. There are gradients of being ethical too - 
someone can watch TV for 8 hours a day and work in their garden for one, 
compared to someone who is spending 14 hours a day on getting permaculture 
applied, in some way or other. But that may be part of their process too - I 
wasn't very effective when I first got into permaculture because I was going 
through an emotional rollarcoaster - I got divorced and went through a lot of 
life changes which I needed to do, to move forward. Someone could have looked 
at that and thought, that girl is a mess, she's not
 serious, but it was my process and I did get through it. Anyway, for me, 
it's been powerful to keep putting out that true ideal there for all of us to 
measure ourselves by and strive toward and to keep asking, what's the next 
step? I do that for students, partners, etc. That can be both an inspiration 
and a kick in the pants, and a way to stay focused...

 
Koreen Brennan

www.growpermaculture.com
www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition


________________________________
 From: loren luyendyk <loren@sborganics.com>
To: Permaculture Listserve <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org> 
Sent: Saturday, January 5, 2013 3:36 AM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Toward Financial Permaculture: New Farms in the 
OldSystem
 

Just to stir the pot and attempt to create more clarity on the apparent 
disagreement regarding the use of Ethics in order to call something PC- it 
seems to me that the Ethics are slightly subjective, as they are quite vague 
and are open to interpretation.  

The issue to me is really the classic heart/head-yin/yang-female/male 
dilemma/battle: PC principles are the head/logic, masculine and yang, while 
the ethics are more heart/feeling- more yin and harder to define.  This is 
what is so brilliant about PC is that the ethics balance the principles, 
unlike most other scientific disciplines which are more 
masculine/brainy/logical.

As Paul pointed out, Monsanto employees may really believe that they are 
"Caring for the earth, the people, and reinvesting the surplus".  This is 
what they basically say on their website- when you google them it says they 
are "a sustainable agriculture company- improving agriculture, improving
 lives".  Of course we all disagree with that claim, but this is just our 
opinion- though it may be supported with mountains of facts.  But for us to 
refute Monsanto or others we must be careful of dogma, as we all know we are 
more righter :)

Perhaps we could make distinctions in order to describe the multitudious 
manifestations or permaculture.  We may say that a certain design or project 
is using permaculture techniques or principles, even though some ethics may 
be lacking (in fact I have yet to find a site that has the ethic part totally 
dialed- though I am sure they exist, and ironically those that have the 
ethical part more wired are lacking in the other areas....).  Sepp may be 
using Mollisonian Principles and also some Holzerian Principles.  I am sure 
Bill would excuse Sepp for some ethical shortcomings if they existed, and 
still approve him to use the term permaculture to describe his work.  Heck, I 
hear Bill
 is no angel either... we are all human here folks.

I also find that most of the projects I have consulted or worked on (and PC 
sites I have visited) had to make some ethical compromises at some point- 
whether it was in personal or ecological relationships, usually as a result 
of the client (ie person who is paying).  I would still call it permaculture 
even though it may not meet all of the criteria outlaid by the DM, or be as 
purist as others.  Perhaps I am wrong to do so, and I do not use the term 
freely or approve of others using it in mal-context, but I could challenge 
many pc sites that claims to be "better" than another and find fault (a road 
I would rather not go down).  There are indeed shining examples out there 
that satisfy the criteria and beyond, and these are what we can hold as our 
inspiration for creating more functional and beautiful designs.

What if some huge investor came along and offered your pc project
 all the funding it needed to get going, but they made all of their money in 
oil and wanted to "diversify their portfolio" (they still had money in oil)?  
How many of us would take it even though we would be participating in 
improving the bottom line for an unethical corporation?  Would this be 
outweighed by our attempt to satisfy the ethics?  Will the Earth die if we do 
or don't?  I think we could justify our way out of it with the ethics...

IMO only true permaculture systems are those that are lived by un-contacted 
indigenous people, or wild animals.  These are becoming fewer and fewer.  No 
money, no internet, caring for the earth because the earth cares for them.  
Still, we may disagree with their cultural/social systems, and they may not 
pass through our strict ethical criteria if they kill one of our sacred cows.

If we need to we can create a score card for pc sites and designs and grade 
each other on
 who is the most PC.  Wouldn't that be fun!  I can't think of a better way to 
spend my time....

Loren Luyendyk
805-452-8249
Permaculture Design and Education
ISA Certified Arborist #WE-7805A
www.sborganics.com
www.globalpermaculture.com
www.surferswithoutborders.com


> From: jasongerhardt@gmail.com
> Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 18:53:23 -0700
> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Toward Financial Permaculture: New Farms in the 
>    OldSystem
> 
> Toby,
> Thanks for
 sharing your thinking on this. It has helped clarity in my own
> thought process, and I share your perspective, except you articulate it
> better than I.
> 
> I will agree to play nice:-) You are right; in the end Paul and I will keep
> doing our own work from different perspectives and both making change for
> the better. I am very comfortable with that.
> 
> -- 
> Jason Gerhardt
> Designer and Educator
> 
> From: Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Toward Financial Permaculture: New Farms in
> theOldSystem
> To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Date: Tuesday, January 1, 2013, 12:16 PM
> 
> Scott
 Pittman wrote:
> 
> > Don't know what to tell you Paul, my grandmother would say "that boy
> would
> > argue with a fence post!"
> 
> I don't even think the fence post is necessary. Thanks for that wonderful
> Texas-ism, Scott.
> 
> Jason and Paul, you boys play nice, now. Blame the frickin' internet and
> its infinite capacity to sustain misunderstandings! You're both doing
> awesome stuff. Paul, I've seen Jason in action, and I'd definitely give him
> the title Duke (or Prince, even) of Colorado permaculture (I think Jerome
> Osentowski's got the kingship sewn up for now).
> 
> Paul, thanks for this clarification:
> 
> > So then I encounter a farmer that loves his herbicides.  And I wish to
> > persuade him about a quarter pound of stuff that would guide him away
> > from the herbicides.  He is starting to beleive
 me and is starting to
> > see a path where might stop using the herbicides ...  mostly because
> > his net income would improve ....   and then somebody jumps in and
> > says "you don't get to use the quarter of a pound of stuff, until you
> > eat all of the infinite pounds."
> 
> That helps me see where you are coming from (I was pretty sure neither one
> of us was an idiot). I do occasionally see zealots who say you have to
> drink all the Kool-Aid or you can't have any, but they are pretty rare.
> Your focus is on getting people to take any step in the right direction,
> and you're good at that, and I'm with you there. My main focus tho, because
> of the way my mind works, is to crank out fully trained permaculture
> thinkers and actors. So we're looking at different parts of the elephant
> (or I'm trying to train the whole elephant and you're trying
 to get him to
> lift his foot off of your bike).
> 
> So you're right in that we need to meet people where they are. In your
> (other, useful) terminology, you are trying to get the pesticide-using
> farmer to move from level 9 to level 8 (with Mollison et al being at level
> 1), or even just to level 8.9999. So you don't even need to use the word
> permaculture, let alone mention the ethics. And I'm looking for people who
> want to end up at level 3 or 2, no matter what level they're at now. So
> they need to know how to use to guide their decision-making: how does their
> action increase earthcare, how does it do peoplecare, and how do they
> design for the surplus that it will create? But, yeah, like Jason says, all
> that farmer needs to know is a little soil science, not the ethics. When
> he's ready to practice permaculture design, they we can hit him with the
>
 ethics, as there will be a niche for it in his mind by then.
> 
> I think Koreen and Jason are right in that permaculture is well used as an
> adjective. It's a process, not a thing. The ethics and principles guide the
> process, and keep us from using cookie-cutter solutions, which is what
> happens if you think it is a thing.
> 
> Sepp's adoption of the word "permaculture" for his work is something I've
> wondered about. I know he didn't use permaculture design to create his
> place; he did it out of his innate skill in observation and understanding
> natural systems. Because of that it ended up looking much like a
> permaculture design. I suspect that when he encountered permaculture, he
> made a shrewd decision--and boy, is he shrewd. Rather than reinvent and try
> to market his work as "Holzerism" or whatever, starting from scratch, he
> saw that it made much more
 sense to use his work to jump high up into the
> permaculture hierarchy, and was able to immediately become one of the most
> highly regarded permaculturists. I don't mean that as a criticism or
> opportunism (in a negative sense), but it worked out very well for him. His
> site seems more "permaculture in hindsight" than permaculture design, if I
> can quibble. And I doubt if he mentions the ethics, or even the principles.
> 
> Congrats to us all for surviving another end of the world prophecy. Happy
> 2013.
> 
> Toby
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Subject: [permaculture] permaculture Ethics
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Care of Earth, Care of People, reinvest the surplus

  These are not vague subjective feel good ethics. It is surprising to
me that there is a question about this.
  They are fundamental principles of ecology and part of the dynamics
of happy healthy societies. Humans have tended to degrade our
ecosystems faster than they can recover, to exploit other people to
gain material wealth, to horde wealth and sustain poverty causing
unrest, misery, war and discord that reinforces the downward spiral

  Care of the earth is a primary need for long term regenerative
,sustainable society. Compromise is required perhaps in the short term
, balancing current situation with long range goals. It is not fossil
fuels that have lead to climate change, but our boom town extraction
mentality and wasteful consumption and overuse. Now we must drastically
limit their use to clean up our mess. So our designs should always
strive to heal the land and restore local and global ecology. They
should move a project forward and leave open the next cycle of design
to move closer to the ideal, to wean ourselves off high energy
technology and move towards a permanent culture.

Care of People  Well yes of course. That is the point of good design,
to learn to care for ourselves in a way that honors care of the earth.
Not too much struggle, fairness, create abundance and fun.

Reinvest, or Recycle surplus: Again a principle of ecology, which can
be applied to do much good in restoration and sustainable design. Any
design that does not plan the full cycle, return and distribution is
not a full design. (one must of course plan a retirement, security and
upkeep, so excess capital may not be a huge part of agriculture, but
the ethis oc recycle is broad and has many applications.

 Darrell E. Frey
Three Sisters Farm
defrey@bioshelter.com
www.bioshelter.com

Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New Society
Publishing, 2011

On Sat, 5 Jan 2013 08:36:02 +0000, loren luyendyk
<loren@sborganics.com> wrote:

> Just to stir the pot and attempt to create more clarity on the
> apparent disagreement regarding the use of Ethics in order to call
> something PC- it seems to me that the Ethics are slightly subjective,
> as they are quite vague and are open to interpretation.  The issue to
> me is really the classic heart/head-yin/yang-female/male
> dilemma/battle: PC principles are the head/logic, masculine and yang,
> while the ethics are more heart/feeling- more yin and harder to
> define.  This is what is so brilliant about PC is that the ethics
> balance the principles, unlike most other scientific disciplines
> which are more masculine/brainy/logical.
>
> As Paul pointed out, Monsanto employees may really believe that they
> are "Caring for the earth, the people, and reinvesting the surplus".
> This is what they basically say on their website- when you google
> them it says they are "a sustainable agriculture company- improving
> agriculture, improving lives".  Of course we all disagree with that
> claim, but this is just our opinion- though it may be supported with
> mountains of facts.  But for us to refute Monsanto or others we must
> be careful of dogma, as we all know we are more righter :)
>
> Perhaps we could make distinctions in order to describe the
> multitudious manifestations or permaculture.  We may say that a
> certain design or project is using permaculture techniques or
> principles, even though some ethics may be lacking (in fact I have
> yet to find a site that has the ethic part totally dialed- though I
> am sure they exist, and ironically those that have the ethical part
> more wired are lacking in the other areas....).  Sepp may be using
> Mollisonian Principles and also some Holzerian Principles.  I am sure
> Bill would excuse Sepp for some ethical shortcomings if they existed,
> and still approve him to use the term permaculture to describe his
> work.  Heck, I hear Bill is no angel either... we are all human here
> folks.
>
> I also find that most of the projects I have consulted or worked on
> (and PC sites I have visited) had to make some ethical compromises at
> some point- whether it was in personal or ecological relationships,
> usually as a result of the client (ie person who is paying).  I would
> still call it permaculture even though it may not meet all of the
> criteria outlaid by the DM, or be as purist as others.  Perhaps I am
> wrong to do so, and I do not use the term freely or approve of others
> using it in mal-context, but I could challenge many pc sites that
> claims to be "better" than another and find fault (a road I would
> rather not go down).  There are indeed shining examples out there
> that satisfy the criteria and beyond, and these are what we can hold
> as our inspiration for creating more functional and beautiful designs.
>
> What if some huge investor came along and offered your pc project all
> the funding it needed to get going, but they made all of their money
> in oil and wanted to "diversify their portfolio" (they still had
> money in oil)?  How many of us would take it even though we would be
> participating in improving the bottom line for an unethical
> corporation?  Would this be outweighed by our attempt to satisfy the
> ethics?  Will the Earth die if we do or don't?  I think we could
> justify our way out of it with the ethics...
>
> IMO only true permaculture systems are those that are lived by
> un-contacted indigenous people, or wild animals.  These are becoming
> fewer and fewer.  No money, no internet, caring for the earth because
> the earth cares for them.  Still, we may disagree with their
> cultural/social systems, and they may not pass through our strict
> ethical criteria if they kill one of our sacred cows.
>
> If we need to we can create a score card for pc sites and designs and
> grade each other on who is the most PC.  Wouldn't that be fun!  I
> can't think of a better way to spend my time....
>
> Loren Luyendyk
> 805-452-8249
> Permaculture Design and Education
> ISA Certified Arborist #WE-7805A
> www.sborganics.com
> www.globalpermaculture.com
> www.surferswithoutborders.com
>
>
> > From: jasongerhardt@gmail.com
> > Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 18:53:23 -0700
> > To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] Toward Financial Permaculture: New
> Farms in the OldSystem
> > > Toby,
> > Thanks for sharing your thinking on this. It has helped clarity in my own
> > thought process, and I share your perspective, except you articulate it
> > better than I.
> > > I will agree to play nice:-) You are right; in the end Paul and I
> will keep
> > doing our own work from different perspectives and both making change for
> > the better. I am very comfortable with that.
> > > -- > Jason Gerhardt
> > Designer and Educator
> > > From: Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com>
> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] Toward Financial Permaculture: New Farms in
> > theOldSystem
> > To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > Date: Tuesday, January 1, 2013, 12:16 PM
> > > Scott Pittman wrote:
> > > > Don't know what to tell you Paul, my grandmother would say "that boy
> > would
> > > argue with a fence post!"
> > > I don't even think the fence post is necessary. Thanks for that 
> > > wonderful
> > Texas-ism, Scott.
> > > Jason and Paul, you boys play nice, now. Blame the frickin' internet and
> > its infinite capacity to sustain misunderstandings! You're both doing
> > awesome stuff. Paul, I've seen Jason in action, and I'd definitely give 
> > him
> > the title Duke (or Prince, even) of Colorado permaculture (I think Jerome
> > Osentowski's got the kingship sewn up for now).
> > > Paul, thanks for this clarification:
> > > > So then I encounter a farmer that loves his herbicides.  And I wish to
> > > persuade him about a quarter pound of stuff that would guide him away
> > > from the herbicides.  He is starting to beleive me and is starting to
> > > see a path where might stop using the herbicides ...  mostly because
> > > his net income would improve ....   and then somebody jumps in and
> > > says "you don't get to use the quarter of a pound of stuff, until you
> > > eat all of the infinite pounds."
> > > That helps me see where you are coming from (I was pretty sure
> neither one
> > of us was an idiot). I do occasionally see zealots who say you have to
> > drink all the Kool-Aid or you can't have any, but they are pretty rare.
> > Your focus is on getting people to take any step in the right direction,
> > and you're good at that, and I'm with you there. My main focus tho, 
> > because
> > of the way my mind works, is to crank out fully trained permaculture
> > thinkers and actors. So we're looking at different parts of the elephant
> > (or I'm trying to train the whole elephant and you're trying to get him to
> > lift his foot off of your bike).
> > > So you're right in that we need to meet people where they are. In your
> > (other, useful) terminology, you are trying to get the pesticide-using
> > farmer to move from level 9 to level 8 (with Mollison et al being at level
> > 1), or even just to level 8.9999. So you don't even need to use the word
> > permaculture, let alone mention the ethics. And I'm looking for people who
> > want to end up at level 3 or 2, no matter what level they're at now. So
> > they need to know how to use to guide their decision-making: how does 
> > their
> > action increase earthcare, how does it do peoplecare, and how do they
> > design for the surplus that it will create? But, yeah, like Jason says, 
> > all
> > that farmer needs to know is a little soil science, not the ethics. When
> > he's ready to practice permaculture design, they we can hit him with the
> > ethics, as there will be a niche for it in his mind by then.
> > > I think Koreen and Jason are right in that permaculture is well
> used as an
> > adjective. It's a process, not a thing. The ethics and principles guide 
> > the
> > process, and keep us from using cookie-cutter solutions, which is what
> > happens if you think it is a thing.
> > > Sepp's adoption of the word "permaculture" for his work is something 
> > > I've
> > wondered about. I know he didn't use permaculture design to create his
> > place; he did it out of his innate skill in observation and understanding
> > natural systems. Because of that it ended up looking much like a
> > permaculture design. I suspect that when he encountered permaculture, he
> > made a shrewd decision--and boy, is he shrewd. Rather than reinvent and 
> > try
> > to market his work as "Holzerism" or whatever, starting from scratch, he
> > saw that it made much more sense to use his work to jump high up into the
> > permaculture hierarchy, and was able to immediately become one of the most
> > highly regarded permaculturists. I don't mean that as a criticism or
> > opportunism (in a negative sense), but it worked out very well for him. 
> > His
> > site seems more "permaculture in hindsight" than permaculture design, if I
> > can quibble. And I doubt if he mentions the ethics, or even the 
> > principles.
> > > Congrats to us all for surviving another end of the world prophecy. 
> > > Happy
> > 2013.
> > > Toby
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