permaculture

[loren luyendyk <loren@sborganics.com>]

Just to stir the pot and attempt to create more clarity on the apparent 
disagreement regarding the use of Ethics in order to call something PC- it 
seems to me that the Ethics are slightly subjective, as they are quite vague 
and are open to interpretation.  

The issue to me is really the classic heart/head-yin/yang-female/male 
dilemma/battle: PC principles are the head/logic, masculine and yang, while 
the ethics are more heart/feeling- more yin and harder to define.  This is 
what is so brilliant about PC is that the ethics balance the principles, 
unlike most other scientific disciplines which are more 
masculine/brainy/logical.

As Paul pointed out, Monsanto employees may really believe that they are 
"Caring for the earth, the people, and reinvesting the surplus".  This is 
what they basically say on their website- when you google them it says they 
are "a sustainable agriculture company- improving agriculture, improving 
lives".  Of course we all disagree with that claim, but this is just our 
opinion- though it may be supported with mountains of facts.  But for us to 
refute Monsanto or others we must be careful of dogma, as we all know we are 
more righter :)

Perhaps we could make distinctions in order to describe the multitudious 
manifestations or permaculture.  We may say that a certain design or project 
is using permaculture techniques or principles, even though some ethics may 
be lacking (in fact I have yet to find a site that has the ethic part totally 
dialed- though I am sure they exist, and ironically those that have the 
ethical part more wired are lacking in the other areas....).  Sepp may be 
using Mollisonian Principles and also some Holzerian Principles.  I am sure 
Bill would excuse Sepp for some ethical shortcomings if they existed, and 
still approve him to use the term permaculture to describe his work.  Heck, I 
hear Bill is no angel either... we are all human here folks.

I also find that most of the projects I have consulted or worked on (and PC 
sites I have visited) had to make some ethical compromises at some point- 
whether it was in personal or ecological relationships, usually as a result 
of the client (ie person who is paying).  I would still call it permaculture 
even though it may not meet all of the criteria outlaid by the DM, or be as 
purist as others.  Perhaps I am wrong to do so, and I do not use the term 
freely or approve of others using it in mal-context, but I could challenge 
many pc sites that claims to be "better" than another and find fault (a road 
I would rather not go down).  There are indeed shining examples out there 
that satisfy the criteria and beyond, and these are what we can hold as our 
inspiration for creating more functional and beautiful designs.

What if some huge investor came along and offered your pc project all the 
funding it needed to get going, but they made all of their money in oil and 
wanted to "diversify their portfolio" (they still had money in oil)?  How 
many of us would take it even though we would be participating in improving 
the bottom line for an unethical corporation?  Would this be outweighed by 
our attempt to satisfy the ethics?  Will the Earth die if we do or don't?  I 
think we could justify our way out of it with the ethics...

IMO only true permaculture systems are those that are lived by un-contacted 
indigenous people, or wild animals.  These are becoming fewer and fewer.  No 
money, no internet, caring for the earth because the earth cares for them.  
Still, we may disagree with their cultural/social systems, and they may not 
pass through our strict ethical criteria if they kill one of our sacred cows.

If we need to we can create a score card for pc sites and designs and grade 
each other on who is the most PC.  Wouldn't that be fun!  I can't think of a 
better way to spend my time....

Loren Luyendyk
805-452-8249
Permaculture Design and Education
ISA Certified Arborist #WE-7805A
www.sborganics.com
www.globalpermaculture.com
www.surferswithoutborders.com


> From: jasongerhardt@gmail.com
> Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 18:53:23 -0700
> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Toward Financial Permaculture: New Farms in the 
>   OldSystem
> 
> Toby,
> Thanks for sharing your thinking on this. It has helped clarity in my own
> thought process, and I share your perspective, except you articulate it
> better than I.
> 
> I will agree to play nice:-) You are right; in the end Paul and I will keep
> doing our own work from different perspectives and both making change for
> the better. I am very comfortable with that.
> 
> -- 
> Jason Gerhardt
> Designer and Educator
> 
> From: Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Toward Financial Permaculture: New Farms in
> theOldSystem
> To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Date: Tuesday, January 1, 2013, 12:16 PM
> 
> Scott Pittman wrote:
> 
> > Don't know what to tell you Paul, my grandmother would say "that boy
> would
> > argue with a fence post!"
> 
> I don't even think the fence post is necessary. Thanks for that wonderful
> Texas-ism, Scott.
> 
> Jason and Paul, you boys play nice, now. Blame the frickin' internet and
> its infinite capacity to sustain misunderstandings! You're both doing
> awesome stuff. Paul, I've seen Jason in action, and I'd definitely give him
> the title Duke (or Prince, even) of Colorado permaculture (I think Jerome
> Osentowski's got the kingship sewn up for now).
> 
> Paul, thanks for this clarification:
> 
> > So then I encounter a farmer that loves his herbicides.  And I wish to
> > persuade him about a quarter pound of stuff that would guide him away
> > from the herbicides.  He is starting to beleive me and is starting to
> > see a path where might stop using the herbicides ...  mostly because
> > his net income would improve ....   and then somebody jumps in and
> > says "you don't get to use the quarter of a pound of stuff, until you
> > eat all of the infinite pounds."
> 
> That helps me see where you are coming from (I was pretty sure neither one
> of us was an idiot). I do occasionally see zealots who say you have to
> drink all the Kool-Aid or you can't have any, but they are pretty rare.
> Your focus is on getting people to take any step in the right direction,
> and you're good at that, and I'm with you there. My main focus tho, because
> of the way my mind works, is to crank out fully trained permaculture
> thinkers and actors. So we're looking at different parts of the elephant
> (or I'm trying to train the whole elephant and you're trying to get him to
> lift his foot off of your bike).
> 
> So you're right in that we need to meet people where they are. In your
> (other, useful) terminology, you are trying to get the pesticide-using
> farmer to move from level 9 to level 8 (with Mollison et al being at level
> 1), or even just to level 8.9999. So you don't even need to use the word
> permaculture, let alone mention the ethics. And I'm looking for people who
> want to end up at level 3 or 2, no matter what level they're at now. So
> they need to know how to use to guide their decision-making: how does their
> action increase earthcare, how does it do peoplecare, and how do they
> design for the surplus that it will create? But, yeah, like Jason says, all
> that farmer needs to know is a little soil science, not the ethics. When
> he's ready to practice permaculture design, they we can hit him with the
> ethics, as there will be a niche for it in his mind by then.
> 
> I think Koreen and Jason are right in that permaculture is well used as an
> adjective. It's a process, not a thing. The ethics and principles guide the
> process, and keep us from using cookie-cutter solutions, which is what
> happens if you think it is a thing.
> 
> Sepp's adoption of the word "permaculture" for his work is something I've
> wondered about. I know he didn't use permaculture design to create his
> place; he did it out of his innate skill in observation and understanding
> natural systems. Because of that it ended up looking much like a
> permaculture design. I suspect that when he encountered permaculture, he
> made a shrewd decision--and boy, is he shrewd. Rather than reinvent and try
> to market his work as "Holzerism" or whatever, starting from scratch, he
> saw that it made much more sense to use his work to jump high up into the
> permaculture hierarchy, and was able to immediately become one of the most
> highly regarded permaculturists. I don't mean that as a criticism or
> opportunism (in a negative sense), but it worked out very well for him. His
> site seems more "permaculture in hindsight" than permaculture design, if I
> can quibble. And I doubt if he mentions the ethics, or even the principles.
> 
> Congrats to us all for surviving another end of the world prophecy. Happy
> 2013.
> 
> Toby
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