permaculture

[Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>]

Jason, 

I think we all may be going a very similar place using different words. When 
I talk about ideal, I'm talking about true sustainability. At some point, the 
conversation about what that really means must happen. I've had many such 
conversations and have that conversation in every course I teach whether 
intro or a full PDC. We need to be aware of what that is, and where we are at 
in relation to that. If we're not even trying to get there, what is "good 
design?" To me, real sustainability is the definition of good design. Yes, we 
have to deal with limitations of the site as well as the owners' interests 
and limitations. But i try to tell people what they would need to do to be 
really sustainable, just so they know. Whether they are going to go there or 
not right at the moment, I am going to tell them what that would look like 
and why they should care. That's the seed planted. I personally think the 
conversation about what is an ideal design (i.e. truly
 sustainable, and in most cases, it needs to be regenerative to even get up 
to being sustainable, there has been so much damage already) may be the most 
important conversation out there. That, for me, is what made me a 
permaculture designer. I don't even know how to talk about good design 
without bringing real sustainability into the mix. 
 
Koreen Brennan

www.growpermaculture.com
www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition


________________________________
 From: Jason Gerhardt <jasongerhardt@gmail.com>
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org 
Sent: Saturday, January 5, 2013 2:10 PM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Toward Financial Permaculture: New Farms in the 
OldSystem
 
Darrell,
Thanks for your sharing on this topic. You continue to teach me much since
I first visited your sites way back when.

Koreen, Loren,
Thanks for your insight. It is quite helpful. I think it's very helpful to
view permaculture as a process, as you say Koreen. It is my hope that this
will become more of the standard view that permaculture is seen as (but I
won't hold my breath). I'm not interested in creating "ideal" permaculture
sites, I don't think they exist even. I see so many designs that are great
on paper, but never get built because they don't take into account the
cultural appropriateness, psychology, emotion, etc, of the people who will
live with the design. Idealistic is too often unrealistic; that's a basic
invisible structure piece that kills designs. I think we can still use
permaculture (and be ethical) without creating ideal sites. Where the
ground gets unstable for me is when we refer to the sites AS permaculture,
then it's time to breakout the "score card", which if I read Loren's
comment right, I agree, kill me now.

I am more interested in getting things built than what I call them. I don't
really care whether my designs are called permaculture or not. To me it is
the design process that makes it permaculture, not the thing in itself. I
think part of what makes me limit the term "permaculture" in my own mind to
the design thinking process is that I'm not interested, for a variety of
reasons, in saving the world (and I mean this genuinely). I don't have a
desire for a term to rally the troops around or fashion a movement out of.
To me, if permaculture is going to save the world, it's going to be a
by-product of good design inherent to the permaculture design process
itself (principles, ethics, and all). So I think if we focus on that we'll
be good. I'm positive others will disagree, for which I'm happy to embrace
diversity.

-- 
Jason Gerhardt
Designer and Educator
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Koreen,
I think you are right that we are using different words to describe the
same thing, or perhaps describing different parts of the same thing, at any
rate arriving at the same place. I don't wish to muddy the waters further.
Very basically, my perspective is that the permaculture ethics are
excellent at helping us do the best we can, at the time we find ourselves,
with the resources we have.

Best,
--
Jason Gerhardt
Designer and Educator