permaculture

[Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>]

I've found that simply explaining cause and effect can help a lot. Most 
people have no clue about the effects they are creating by their lifestyle. I 
have seen more people change their ways simply by being made aware of the 
whole chain of events connected to "their ways", than anything else I've 
done, personally. The way it is explained has a lot to do with how well they 
might be willing to pay attention or listen, and that is an art that each of 
us develops our own instinct and style for. Getting through to someone from 
Monsanto might need a different approach as their "cause/effect" 
connectionators may be damaged....  But I sincerely laud, respect and 
acknowledge anybody who is willing to try!
 
Koreen Brennan

www.growpermaculture.com
www.facebook.com/growpermaculturenow
www.meetup.com/sustainable-urban-agriculture-coalition


________________________________
 From: loren luyendyk <loren@sborganics.com>
To: defrey@bioshelter.com; Permaculture Listserve 
<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org> 
Sent: Sunday, January 6, 2013 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] permaculture Ethics
 

I wasn't debating what the ethics are, we all know that because we 
(permaculturalists) teach/live them.  However we are a minority, so far.

I was trying to suggest that others outside of permaculture (ie those we are 
trying to convert) may have a different view of ethics.  Like "love thy 
neighbor", etc.

In order to understand how the PC ethics could be "mis-interpreted" (God, I 
mean, Bill forbid) we must put ourselves in another's shoes.  This is why I 
used the example of Monsanto employees BELIEVING that they are Caring for the 
earth and the people, and re-investing the surplus.  I propose the ethics are 
a belief system, akin to religion, which is always debatable... lest it be 
dogma.  Furthermore, the ethics are not principles of ecology- that is 
another chapter :)  The ethics may drive us to APPLY the principles, but they 
are distinctly different.

So- How does one care for the earth?  the people? and reinvest the surplus?  
You, Darrell, may have your opinion of how to do this, and may BELIEVE very 
strongly that it is right, but others may have VERY different opinions of how 
to satisfy the ethics.  This was my point.  (BTW- I agree with you Darrell, I 
am just trying to get us to think outside of our bubble and relate to the 
masses who may not have the same beliefs, yet.  Sort of a "know thy enemy" 
tactic.)

I personally believe in the ethics, very strongly, that is why I have 
dedicated my life to permaculture.  Nor was I suggesting that we abandon the 
ethics in our designs/work/lives- this is what separates PC from other design 
disciplines.  I was attempting to try and give another perspective on what 
Paul was claiming was hindering PC, and to highlight the difficulty in 
getting people on the same page, especially when it comes to ethics.

I feel that the "problem" is that having a strong moral compass/ethical 
stance takes much more "training" than it does to make a compost pile.  Some 
are born with ethics, and others must cultivate them.  It may appear very 
simple to some, and very vague to others.  This is where we come in, sort of 
the "sages of the garden" that teach spiritual lessons alongside practical 
techniques.  Why do we compost?  Because the earth needs nurturing and she 
feeds us, and the plants grow better...  This sort of understanding may take 
some more time to realize, especially if they were raised in the city or on a 
farm spraying pesticides. 

This is what deep ecology is about- getting in touch with your connection to 
Gaia and cultivating the love that is there.  This "feeling" is not readily 
available to everyone, and we must count ourselves lucky to be able to 
experience this- and hence it is our responsibility to share this feeling 
with others.  So I disagree, the ethics are "feel good"- because feelin' good 
is alright!  And feeling good is what drives us to do good.

So, how do we get the rest of us (the world) to believe what we believe, 
ethically speaking?  By dosing them with hallucinogens and guiding them 
through the forest on a moonlit night?  A cuddle puddle or laughter yoga 
session?  Whatever, we just need to relate to people as opposed to imposing 
our ethics on them.  That is the first step.

We need to take the "cult" out of permaculture.
Loren Luyendyk
805-452-8249
Permaculture Design and Education
ISA Certified Arborist #WE-7805A
www.sborganics.com
www.globalpermaculture.com
www.surferswithoutborders.com


> From: defrey@bioshelter.com
> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org; loren@sborganics.com
> Subject: permaculture Ethics
> Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 12:47:32 -0500
> 
> Care of Earth, Care of People, reinvest the surplus
> 
>   These are not vague subjective feel good ethics. It is surprising to 
> me that there is a question about this. 
>   They are fundamental principles of ecology and part of the dynamics 
> of happy healthy societies. Humans have tended to degrade our 
> ecosystems faster than they can recover, to exploit other people to 
> gain material wealth, to horde wealth and sustain poverty causing 
> unrest, misery, war and discord that reinforces the downward spiral
> 
>   Care of the earth is a primary need for long term regenerative 
> ,sustainable society. Compromise is required perhaps in the short term 
> , balancing current situation with long range goals. It is not fossil 
> fuels that have lead to climate change, but our boom town extraction 
> mentality and wasteful consumption and overuse. Now we must drastically 
> limit their use to clean up our mess. So our designs should always 
> strive to heal the land and restore local and global ecology. They 
> should move a project forward and leave open the next cycle of design 
> to move closer to the ideal, to wean ourselves off high energy 
> technology and move towards a permanent culture. 
> 
> Care of People  Well yes of course. That is the point of good design, 
> to learn to care for ourselves in a way that honors care of the earth. 
> Not too much struggle, fairness, create abundance and fun. 
> 
> Reinvest, or Recycle surplus: Again a principle of ecology, which can 
> be applied to do much good in restoration and sustainable design. Any 
> design that does not plan the full cycle, return and distribution is 
> not a full design. (one must of course plan a retirement, security and 
> upkeep, so excess capital may not be a huge part of agriculture, but 
> the ethis oc recycle is broad and has many applications. 
> 
>  Darrell E. Frey
> Three Sisters Farm
> defrey@bioshelter.com
> www.bioshelter.com
> 
> Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New Society 
> Publishing, 2011
> 
> On Sat, 5 Jan 2013 08:36:02 +0000, loren luyendyk 
> <loren@sborganics.com> wrote:
> 
> > Just to stir the pot and attempt to create more clarity on the 
> > apparent disagreement regarding the use of Ethics in order to call 
> > something PC- it seems to me that the Ethics are slightly subjective, 
> > as they are quite vague and are open to interpretation.  The issue to 
> > me is really the classic heart/head-yin/yang-female/male 
> > dilemma/battle: PC principles are the head/logic, masculine and yang, 
> > while the ethics are more heart/feeling- more yin and harder to 
> > define.  This is what is so brilliant about PC is that the ethics 
> > balance the principles, unlike most other scientific disciplines 
> > which are more masculine/brainy/logical. 
> >
> > As Paul pointed out, Monsanto employees may really believe that they 
> > are "Caring for the earth, the people, and reinvesting the surplus".  
> > This is what they basically say on their website- when you google 
> > them it says they are "a sustainable agriculture company- improving 
> > agriculture, improving lives".  Of course we all disagree with that 
> > claim, but this is just our opinion- though it may be supported with 
> > mountains of facts.  But for us to refute Monsanto or others we must 
> > be careful of dogma, as we all know we are more righter :)
> >
> > Perhaps we could make distinctions in order to describe the 
> > multitudious manifestations or permaculture.  We may say that a 
> > certain design or project is using permaculture techniques or 
> > principles, even though some ethics may be lacking (in fact I have 
> > yet to find a site that has the ethic part totally dialed- though I 
> > am sure they exist, and ironically those that have the ethical part 
> > more wired are lacking in the other areas....).  Sepp may be using 
> > Mollisonian Principles and also some Holzerian Principles.  I am sure 
> > Bill would excuse Sepp for some ethical shortcomings if they existed, 
> > and still approve him to use the term permaculture to describe his 
> > work.  Heck, I hear Bill is no angel either... we are all human here 
> > folks. 
> >
> > I also find that most of the projects I have consulted or worked on 
> > (and PC sites I have visited) had to make some ethical compromises at 
> > some point- whether it was in personal or ecological relationships, 
> > usually as a result of the client (ie person who is paying).  I would 
> > still call it permaculture even though it may not meet all of the 
> > criteria outlaid by the DM, or be as purist as others.  Perhaps I am 
> > wrong to do so, and I do not use the term freely or approve of others 
> > using it in mal-context, but I could challenge many pc sites that 
> > claims to be "better" than another and find fault (a road I would 
> > rather not go down).  There are indeed shining examples out there 
> > that satisfy the criteria and beyond, and these are what we can hold 
> > as our inspiration for creating more functional and beautiful designs. 
> >
> > What if some huge investor came along and offered your pc project all 
> > the funding it needed to get going, but they made all of their money 
> > in oil and wanted to "diversify their portfolio" (they still had 
> > money in oil)?  How many of us would take it even though we would be 
> > participating in improving the bottom line for an unethical 
> > corporation?  Would this be outweighed by our attempt to satisfy the 
> > ethics?  Will the Earth die if we do or don't?  I think we could 
> > justify our way out of it with the ethics... 
> >
> > IMO only true permaculture systems are those that are lived by 
> > un-contacted indigenous people, or wild animals.  These are becoming 
> > fewer and fewer.  No money, no internet, caring for the earth because 
> > the earth cares for them.  Still, we may disagree with their 
> > cultural/social systems, and they may not pass through our strict 
> > ethical criteria if they kill one of our sacred cows. 
> >
> > If we need to we can create a score card for pc sites and designs and 
> > grade each other on who is the most PC.  Wouldn't that be fun!  I 
> > can't think of a better way to spend my time.... 
> >
> > Loren Luyendyk
> > 805-452-8249
> > Permaculture Design and Education
> > ISA Certified Arborist #WE-7805A
> > www.sborganics.com
> > www.globalpermaculture.com
> > www.surferswithoutborders.com
> >
> >
> > > From: jasongerhardt@gmail.com
> > > Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 18:53:23 -0700
> > > To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > > Subject: Re: [permaculture] Toward Financial Permaculture: New 
> > Farms in the OldSystem
> > > > Toby,
> > > Thanks for sharing your thinking on this. It has helped clarity in my 
> > > own
> > > thought process, and I share your perspective, except you articulate it
> > > better than I. 
> > > > I will agree to play nice:-) You are right; in the end Paul and I 
> > will keep
> > > doing our own work from different perspectives and both making change 
> > > for
> > > the better. I am very comfortable with that. 
> > > > -- > Jason Gerhardt
> > > Designer and Educator
> > > > From: Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [permaculture] Toward Financial Permaculture: New Farms in
> > > theOldSystem
> > > To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > > Date: Tuesday, January 1, 2013, 12:16 PM
> > > > Scott Pittman wrote:
> > > > > Don't know what to tell you Paul, my grandmother would say "that boy
> > > would
> > > > argue with a fence post!"
> > > > I don't even think the fence post is necessary. Thanks for that 
> > > > wonderful
> > > Texas-ism, Scott. 
> > > > Jason and Paul, you boys play nice, now. Blame the frickin' internet 
> > > > and
> > > its infinite capacity to sustain misunderstandings! You're both doing
> > > awesome stuff. Paul, I've seen Jason in action, and I'd definitely give 
> > > him
> > > the title Duke (or Prince, even) of Colorado permaculture (I think 
> > > Jerome
> > > Osentowski's got the kingship sewn up for now). 
> > > > Paul, thanks for this clarification:
> > > > > So then I encounter a farmer that loves his herbicides.  And I wish 
> > > > > to
> > > > persuade him about a quarter pound of stuff that would guide him away
> > > > from the herbicides.  He is starting to beleive me and is starting to
> > > > see a path where might stop using the herbicides ...  mostly because
> > > > his net income would improve ....   and then somebody jumps in and
> > > > says "you don't get to use the quarter of a pound of stuff, until you
> > > > eat all of the infinite pounds."
> > > > That helps me see where you are coming from (I was pretty sure 
> > neither one
> > > of us was an idiot). I do occasionally see zealots who say you have to
> > > drink all the Kool-Aid or you can't have any, but they are pretty rare. 
> > > Your focus is on getting people to take any step in the right direction,
> > > and you're good at that, and I'm with you there. My main focus tho, 
> > > because
> > > of the way my mind works, is to crank out fully trained permaculture
> > > thinkers and actors. So we're looking at different parts of the elephant
> > > (or I'm trying to train the whole elephant and you're trying to get him 
> > > to
> > > lift his foot off of your bike). 
> > > > So you're right in that we need to meet people where they are. In your
> > > (other, useful) terminology, you are trying to get the pesticide-using
> > > farmer to move from level 9 to level 8 (with Mollison et al being at 
> > > level
> > > 1), or even just to level 8.9999. So you don't even need to use the word
> > > permaculture, let alone mention the ethics. And I'm looking for people 
> > > who
> > > want to end up at level 3 or 2, no matter what level they're at now. So
> > > they need to know how to use to guide their decision-making: how does 
> > > their
> > > action increase earthcare, how does it do peoplecare, and how do they
> > > design for the surplus that it will create? But, yeah, like Jason says, 
> > > all
> > > that farmer needs to know is a little soil science, not the ethics. When
> > > he's ready to practice permaculture design, they we can hit him with the
> > > ethics, as there will be a niche for it in his mind by then. 
> > > > I think Koreen and Jason are right in that permaculture is well 
> > used as an
> > > adjective. It's a process, not a thing. The ethics and principles guide 
> > > the
> > > process, and keep us from using cookie-cutter solutions, which is what
> > > happens if you think it is a thing. 
> > > > Sepp's adoption of the word "permaculture" for his work is something 
> > > > I've
> > > wondered about. I know he didn't use permaculture design to create his
> > > place; he did it out of his innate skill in observation and 
> > > understanding
> > > natural systems. Because of that it ended up looking much like a
> > > permaculture design. I suspect that when he encountered permaculture, he
> > > made a shrewd decision--and boy, is he shrewd. Rather than reinvent and 
> > > try
> > > to market his work as "Holzerism" or whatever, starting from scratch, he
> > > saw that it made much more sense to use his work to jump high up into 
> > > the
> > > permaculture hierarchy, and was able to immediately become one of the 
> > > most
> > > highly regarded permaculturists. I don't mean that as a criticism or
> > > opportunism (in a negative sense), but it worked out very well for him. 
> > > His
> > > site seems more "permaculture in hindsight" than permaculture design, 
> > > if I
> > > can quibble. And I doubt if he mentions the ethics, or even the 
> > > principles. 
> > > > Congrats to us all for surviving another end of the world prophecy. 
> > > > Happy
> > > 2013. 
> > > > Toby
> > > _______________________________________________
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Subject: [permaculture] Hot water for free--from the wood cook stove! -
 Unplugged! (thermosyphon system between tank and wood stove)
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Hot water for free--from the wood cook stove! - Unplugged!
http://sustainablepreparedness.com/index.php/blog/hot-water-for-free-from-the-wood-cook-stove

Hot water for free--from the wood cook stove!

One of the most multi-purpose tools on the homestead is a wood cook stove.
Ours not only cooks the food and keeps the house toasty warm; it also heats
our hot water!

The two main components, aside from the wood cook stove, are a *water
coil*(#6 & #7 on the pictures below) which is a pipe that runs through
the fire
box to heat the water, and a *range
boiler<http://sustainablepreparedness.com/index.php/blog/hot-water-for-free-from-the-wood-cook-stove#>
* (picture on left) which is a large tank that holds the hot water before
and after it circulates through the wood cook stove.
 Active vs Passive

There are a couple of variations on the "hot water from your wood stove"
scene.  One involves the use of an inline electric circulating pump to
force water through the water coil; the other uses the simple principle of
heat rising to accomplish the same thing.  It is called a thermosiphon
system.  "Active" systems (using an electric pump) have some advantages,
but in the opinion of this writer, not enough to offset their negatives for
most people.  An active system can produce as much as 50% more hot water
than a passive (thermosiphon) system, and since more water movement takes
place, there is less chance of water overheating and creating dangerous
pressure levels.  But anytime you unnecessarily involve a mechanical or
electric device in essential systems, you are asking for trouble.  For
instance, if electricity is lost during winter, you would have to
potentially shut the wood stove down or dismantle the hot water system to
prevent dangerously high temperatures and pressures.  And some inline pumps
have a poor reputation for reliability.  Even if you are on a renewable
energy 
system<http://sustainablepreparedness.com/index.php/blog/hot-water-for-free-from-the-wood-cook-stove#>with
a very efficient DC inline pump, it still uses electricity throughout
the day while the stove is running, and that can add up.  Bottom line?
Whenever possible, keep it simple and go with a thermosiphon system!  And
that is what we are going to focus on in this post.
How Thermosiphon Works

The range boiler is placed higher than the water coil in order to take
advantage of an important principle.  Just as hot air naturally rises, so
does water.  When connected properly, the water that heats up in the water
coil will begin rising toward the elevated ranger boiler.  As this hot
water begins moving, it naturally pulls cold water in behind to replace it,
and before you know it, a "thermosiphon" has begun--circulating water from
the range boiler through the water coil without the aid of any pump!  Our
range boiler holds 40 gallons and only needs 1 to 1.5 hours of stove run
time before it is nice and hot.  When the tank is insulated, this hot water
can last all day.  This makes summer time wood cook stove use inside the
house a possibility in some drier northern climates (where a flash fire in
the morning is bearable).  We open all the windows that have screens, open
the front door (which is next to the stove), and place a strong fan in the
doorway that blows hot air out the door and pulls cooler air in the
windows.  In warmer climates, it might be advisable to hook
up<http://sustainablepreparedness.com/index.php/blog/hot-water-for-free-from-the-wood-cook-stove#>a
solar water heater for use during warmer times of the year.

Choosing the Right Components

First, the *stove*.  While many different types of stoves could be used for
this system, the easiest and best choice is an Amish made wood cook stove.
Not only is it so versatile, it comes all set up for the job with knockouts
in the back to fit a water coil.  Often you can order the stove with water
coil already installed.  Most other stoves must be manually retrofitted to
work with a water coil or water jacket, which involves drilling holes in
the back--not exactly something I fancy doing on an expensive stove.  The
other nice feature is that the Amish made wood cook stoves are generally
quite air tight, which means a longer burn time and more efficient use of
wood.  My stove can be cranked down so far that is almost puts a strong
fire out!  The same cannot be said of many older and more ornate wood cook
stoves.

Second, the *water coil*.  This should be made out of stainless steel.
Your only options are single coil or double coil.  Double coil, as the name
implies, makes an extra loop around the firebox and heats up more water
more quickly.  That sounds great, but think it through first.  While you
want your water to get hot, you don't want it so hot that the pressures
rises to dangerous levels and blows your system's pressure release valve
frequently.  So you are doing a balancing act.  Hot water usage and the
size of your storage tank (range boiler) are factors that will affect your
decision here.  If you have a large family and are using a larger range
boiler (50-80+ gal.), you might consider a double coil.  If, on the other
hand, you will not be using a lot of hot water and your range boiler is
smaller (30-40 gal.), you would be better off with a single coil.  Water *
jackets* are also available for regular wood stoves and come in a variety
of sizes for low, medium and high output.  Choose accordingly.

Third would be the storage tank or *range boiler*.  It certainly is
possible to use a standard water heater as it is insulated and already has
an appropriate number of ports for some systems; but I chose to go with a
range boiler that is made for the job.  It is a super heavy duty tank that
is lined with a masonry type lining inside to prevent rust-out.  It also
has plenty of ports for fittings in just the right places.  Mine is
made by Vaughn
Corp. <http://www.vaughncorp.com/html/boiler.html> but I purchased it
through Stoves and
More<http://www.stovesandmore.com/index.php/products/boilers>(who also
sells excellent Amish made wood cook stoves).  I really like
mine, but have a friend who had to re-tap the thread on some of the ports
because there was welding splatter present.  Hopefully that was a fluke.

Fourth would be the *pipes* used to connect the water coil to the range
boiler.  Ideally it would be 1" diameter and made out of stainless steel.
While 1" is best, it is possible to use 3/4" for systems with a large tank
and plenty of rise from the water coil to the range boiler.  But we are
after the least amount of restriction so the water can circulate freely and
not overheat.  The ideal material would be stainless steel threaded pipe,
but that can be quite costly if your range boiler sits more than a few feet
from the stove.  In situations with longer runs, one could use stainless
steel for the first several feet away from the water coil (both inlet and
outlet) and then switch to copper or even galvanized steel.  Copper is NOT
recommended for use close to the stove as solder could melt from the joints
if water flow stops or pipes are dry while the stove is running hot.
Galvanized steel pipe may be used for the entire loop between water coil
and range boiler, but it will not last as long as stainless steel or
copper.  Try to avoid 90° elbows as much as possible--they create
restrictions that reduces circulation.  It is better to use 45° elbows if
possible.  But if sufficient rise is present and the range boiler is close
to the stove, one or two 90° elbows probably won't hurt anything.  I have
some on my system, but I used 1" pipe and placed the range boiler very
close to the stove and a sufficient distance above it.  The type of pipe
that leaves the outlet of the range boiler is not as critical, but I
decided to stay with galvanized steel for several feet before switching to
pex, due to the high water temperatures present in the range boiler.  One
important point...if you plan on connecting copper to steel, be sure to use
a brass (preferred) or dielectric fitting in between to prevent
electrolysis.  The reason brass is preferred is that a dielectric fitting
could possible melt from the very high temperatures present.  Also, be
aware that stainless steel is a different animal than regular steel; it can
connect to copper directly without any problems.

Placement

The engine that drives a thermosiphon system is vertical rise from the
water coil to the range boiler.  Within reasonable limits, the more rise
present, the stronger your circulation will be (all other things being
equal).  While placing the range boiler on the second floor is certainly a
good option, here is a rule of thumb for vertical placement:
For every 2 horizontal feet of run away from the stove, there should be at
least 1 foot of vertical fall from the cold water outlet on ranger boiler
(#5) to the cold water inlet on the water coil (#7).  *Example:*  *Range
boiler is 10 feet away from stove.  Cold water outlet on range boiler  (#5)
should be at least 5 vertical feet above cold water inlet on water coil
(#7).*

My range boiler is less than 4 feet from the wood cook stove and has around
2 feet of vertical fall from the cold water outlet of the range boiler to
the cold water inlet of the water coil.  I have found it to work quite well.

Hybrid Systems

While some may choose to do as we currently are and use the wood cook stove
all summer, your climate or other reasons may make that an unthinkable
option.  And there is no need to sweat it out with all the potentials we
have for hybrid systems.  One option is to use the wood cook stove during
winter and hook up a good quality solar water heater for use during spring,
summer and fall.  Often this may be accomplished using the same range
boiler for both systems to lower overall costs.  That is our ultimate plan
for next summer.  Another option is to run the main outlet from the range
boiler (#3) through an on-demand (tankless) propane water heater  before
sending the hot water to any fixtures.  If the water is sufficiently hot,
the water heater will not fire up.  If the water is too cool, it gets
heated up as its being delivered to your faucet.  This, of course, is not a
completely independent option as it uses propane, but it is very
convenient.  There are many other possibilities--the sky is the limit!

Troubleshooting

Water not hot enough?  Here are some possibilities:

   - Fire not hot enough?
   - Water coil or jacket placed too far from heat?
   - Try a double coil water coil or larger output water jacket
   - Range boiler too large? Try a smaller tank
   - Pipes connecting range boiler to water coil not large enough (creating
   a restriction)? Try larger diameter pipes
   - Try insulating pipes and range boiler
   - Try moving the range boiler closer to stove and/or higher to improve
   circulation
   - Last resort, install an electric circulation pump

Water overheating and blowing pressure release valve regularly?

   - Try a slower fire, especially when initially starting a fire?  It can
   take a little while for some systems to start circulating after a fire is
   started.  During that time, water in the water coil can potentially
   overheat.
   - Try a larger range boiler
   - Try larger diameter pipe between range boiler and water coil/jacket
   - If using a double coil water coil or high output water jacket, try
   installing a single coil or lower output model
   - If pipes or range boiler are insulated, try removing insulation
   - Last resort, install an electric circulation pump

As you can see, improving circulation can help when dealing with either
extreme.  Much like the human body, proper circulation is vital!
In addition to personal experience and second-hand testimony from friends,
I am much indebted to Lehmans for their helpful booklet
*Hot Water From Your
Woodstove*<http://www.lehmans.com/store/Stoves___Cook_Stoves___Hot_Water_From_Your_Stove___Hot_Water_from_your_Woodstove_Book___HHWF?Args=>
.
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