permaculture

[Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>]

Paul, not everybody has the technical skills nor the time to run lists and 
web forums, etc. I agree there should be multiple forums and lists for people 
with different focuses and styles, and there are a number out there. Some of 
them have gotten active in a matter of weeks, not years. I'm spending more 
time these days sharing in other internet communities, where a single person 
does not arbitrarily determine who gets to play on the playground or who gets 
to say what. These communities rarely have any problems or disruptions - in 
fact one that I'm on has never had anything that hasn't been swiftly handled 
by the group members amongst themselves and two others have never had any 
disruptions period. All very civilized and helpful stuff. 
Freedom to communicate one's thoughts, even if they may be in error 
sometimes, is a pretty important aspect of social permaculture, to me.  What 
it seems like you're saying is that this is not a commons, it is Larry's 
private list, as your forums are your private lists. It looks like a commons, 
but it isn't. I guess that is better than not having anything that even looks 
like a commons, and I have gotten value from this list.  But for me 
personally, learning to care for and be responsible for the commons as a 
community, rather than having it run by a single authority figure, is an 
important enough skill set (that many in this culture have lost), that I want 
to practice and personify it at any opportunity.  Cory

--- On Wed, 12/15/10, paul wheaton <paul@richsoil.com> wrote:

From: paul wheaton <paul@richsoil.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] What is a commons? And how do we regulate it?
To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Wednesday, December 15, 2010, 2:59 PM

I used to have a peace sticker on my rig.  I took it off when I
started to notice a trend that some really hostile people have peace
stickers on their rigs.

I think we should have 1000 permaculture lists and 1000 permaculture
forums and 1000 web sites that have neither.   Each site is managed
exactly the way the site owner wants.  And the sites that are all
angry and want to be "the only" can be that.  And sites that are open
and have links to all the other sites can do that.  In time, everybody
gravitates to the site that is the best match for them.

So then when a site/list/forum says "we're all about hearts, flowers,
rainbows, love and peace, and if you don't like that then I will rip
your eyes from your republican war mongering skull" ... well, folks
that are into that sort of thing can go there.

I think Larry should run this list as he sees fit.  I think if
somebody wants a "better" list, they should start one.  They will
probably discover that it's a lot of work and it takes a lot of years
to get enough people together to make it fun.  And if folks wanna run
something by committee or consensus or something ... well ... that
should be interesting .... and probably a whole new kind of work.

Permies.com now gets about 6000 people per day.  And my bigger forum
site, coderanch.com gets over 100,000 people per day.  There are heaps
of people that seem really adamant that I have no idea what the hell
I'm doing and should be strung up in the name of "what's best for the
community."  But I have yet to find one of those people that has built
a community bigger than a dozen or so - so it's kinda hard to put a
lot of weight in their speculation.  In the meantime, both of my
communities just keep getting bigger and bigger.

Lawrence, you have a big community here.  Based on what little I know,
I have to say that you must be doing something right.   If you try to
please everybody, you're just gonna end up frustrated and sad.
Instead, do what I do:  just please the people that seem to be already
pleased and let the rest go and make their own stuff.   Soooooo much
easier.  And then you find your stuff attracts even more people that
like your stuff.  The people that don't like that sort of thing so
much tend to move on.

If you're not pissing some people off, you're just not living your
life.  If you are pissing off one person every day and pleasing 500
people every day, then I think you are doing a lot more good than
harm.
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>From cory8570@yahoo.com  Wed Dec 15 18:56:48 2010
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From: Cory Brennan <cory8570@yahoo.com>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
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I wasn't there, I missed most of it, so I have no context other than what I 
said below.  As Paul said, we all have different viewpoints within the 
overview of permaculture, and that seems especially true in the social 
permaculture arena.  Diversity is a good thing, and the various viewpoints do 
end up creating their own niches.   

--- On Wed, 12/15/10, Lawrence F. London, Jr. <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net> 
wrote:

From: Lawrence F. London, Jr. <venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] What is a commons? And how do we regulate it?
To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Wednesday, December 15, 2010, 3:42 PM

On 12/15/2010 5:09 PM, Cory Brennan wrote:
> 
> I sent a suggestion for rules a while back which included warnings
> before being permanently removed, which I believe you said you liked
> Lawrence.  Based on common moderator rules, it seemed fair to me,
> because it allows a person to change their behavior if they are
> inadvertently doing something to violate the rules. I don't recall
> exactly but I believe the rules for expulsion (after warning) were
> limited to personal attacks on other members, and spamming? Cory
>> I hope my two cents is helpful. I would like to see a sensibly
>> moderated commons.

As usual, Cory, your comments are exceptional in appropriateness,
creative and perceptive and caring.

In just a few words, my response is:

I am interested in promoting and engaging in a "sensibly moderated commons" 
here in this list. We have actually been doing this informally for years and 
it has worked.

It is the rare conflagration that demands immediate action to keep
discussion on track and useful. Only a few people engage in, i.e. start, this 
kind of list disruption which necessitates immediate damage control, user 
moderation or expulsion. The past major occurrences were useless and extreme, 
often the result of venting frustrations over failure to dominate the forum 
with an agenda, usually non-permaculture.
There would have been no point deferring to a group moderation process; no 
purpose would have been served dragging it out and eroding list content with 
such out of focus distractions.




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On 12/15/2010 5:59 PM, paul wheaton wrote:
> I used to have a peace sticker on my rig.
Rig?
Kenworth, Peterbilt, White, Mack, International, MAN heavy hauler?

 > I took it off when I
> started to notice a trend that some really hostile people have peace
> stickers on their rigs.

Truckers are mostly cool and if they affixed a peace sticker they
probably meant peace....

> I think we should have 1000 permaculture lists and 1000 permaculture
> forums and 1000 web sites that have neither.   Each site is managed
> exactly the way the site owner wants.  And the sites that are all
> angry and want to be "the only" can be that.  And sites that are open
> and have links to all the other sites can do that.  In time, everybody
> gravitates to the site that is the best match for them.

The 3000+ and growing PC sites is a goal to strive for particularly if
they are hyperlinked, feed connected, portals and aggregates,
distributed relational and flatfile databases, archives and datasets,
all searchable: searching one also searches all connected sites.

> So then when a site/list/forum says "we're all about hearts, flowers,
> rainbows, love and peace, and if you don't like that then I will rip
> your eyes from your republican war mongering skull" ... well, folks
> that are into that sort of thing can go there.

Such counterproductive behavior...

> I think Larry should run this list as he sees fit.  I think if
> somebody wants a "better" list, they should start one.  They will

Absolutely.

> probably discover that it's a lot of work and it takes a lot of years
> to get enough people together to make it fun.  And if folks wanna run

There is no doubt about that at all. Case closed.

> something by committee or consensus or something ... well ... that
> should be interesting .... and probably a whole new kind of work.

A Drupal site might lend itself to that sort of management.
Have a look at orangepolitics.org.

> Permies.com now gets about 6000 people per day.  And my bigger forum
> site, coderanch.com gets over 100,000 people per day.  There are heaps
> of people that seem really adamant that I have no idea what the hell
> I'm doing and should be strung up in the name of "what's best for the
> community."  But I have yet to find one of those people that has built
> a community bigger than a dozen or so - so it's kinda hard to put a
> lot of weight in their speculation.  In the meantime, both of my
> communities just keep getting bigger and bigger.

This is good. The range of topics and depth and amount of discussion at
Permies is very valuable and is setting a trend, making big waves.

> Lawrence, you have a big community here.  Based on what little I know,
> I have to say that you must be doing something right.   If you try to

It would seem so.

> please everybody, you're just gonna end up frustrated and sad.
> Instead, do what I do:  just please the people that seem to be already
> pleased and let the rest go and make their own stuff.   Soooooo much

That is a good plan.

> easier.  And then you find your stuff attracts even more people that
> like your stuff.  The people that don't like that sort of thing so
> much tend to move on.

Well, we have 930 people here now who use the forum for what are most
likely substantial reasons. Now the list is mirrored in two places
opening public archives for viewing, RSS feeds, commenting and followups
in either a list/group or a blog.

> If you're not pissing some people off, you're just not living your
> life.  If you are pissing off one person every day and pleasing 500
> people every day, then I think you are doing a lot more good than
> harm.

True.

LL