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permaculture - Re: [permaculture] What is a commons? And how do we regulate it?

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  • From: Jim Helwig <jimhelwig@mailcan.com>
  • To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] What is a commons? And how do we regulate it?
  • Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2010 14:20:11 -0600

That was a very thoughtful and emotion-free/insult-free response. Thank you.

on 12/15/2010 02:08 PM Smith Mill Creek said the following:
To all on the list-
I'd like to thank Larry London for not filtering out this exchange between
Shivani and Killian.

I think a number of points come out for me.

1- I think Killian used some angry and judgment language reacting to Shivani
(this is regardless of where I stand on seeds).

2- Shivani is demonstrating that a number of folks would like the
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org list (how many subscribers are there?)
to have a moderation that is perceived to be less arbitrary.

3- I think folks would like more of a "sensible commons" approach to the
list because they feel it fits in with permaculture, which is about the question, not
just about what I should do about my quarter-acre of land; but how 7 billion of us
share this planet. We haven't mastered "commons-ology", but many of us think
an effort worth pursuing.

This discussion was most prominently pursued at first International Commons
Conference, which took place in Berlin November 1 and 2, 2010.

4- Moderating permaculture listservs is never easy. Discussion like this have
been pursued at length on the Portland, OR permaculture list.

5- I heard something perceptive from a permaculture teacher two years ago.In
his fifties, he'd been teaching permaculture for decades. He pondered that
the permaculture culture had been influenced by a famously grumpy and
curmudgeonly founder. It does seem to be that the younger generation seems to
be overcoming this syndrome.


I hope my two cents is helpful. I would like to see a sensibly moderated
commons.

Sincerely,
Jim
Asheville, NC, USA
****************************

On 12/15/10 1:26 PM, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org wrote:
Message: 4
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 23:59:47 -0500
From: Killian O'Brien<admin@pri-de.org>
To:"SArjuna@aol.com" <SArjuna@aol.com>, "carey.t@sbcglobal.net"
<carey.t@sbcglobal.net>, permaculture<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Permaculture list serve invitation

Shivani,

Your little screeds to my private mail box are self-serving. I have yet to
spend time on any listserv or bbs that does not ban people. It happens, and
is even necessary. How, exactly that is done is completely up to whomever
runs the list/bbs, so to call it tyrannical isn?t logical. You complain about
free speech? You are on a*privately owned* listserv, not a public corner!!

You are, quite simply, behaving childishly and hypocritically. You use words
like ?tyrannical?, you describe another list as kinder, gentler, meaning
Lawrence?s is not. Etc, etc. Then you talk about the Third Ethic.

You are not doing this for our info, but to hurt Lawrence and draw people
away.

Please, take a look in the mirror.

Cheers,

Killian O?Brien
PRI-De
***************************************************

From:SArjuna@aol.com [mailto:SArjuna@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2010 11:25 PM
To:carey.t@sbcglobal.net
Subject: Permaculture list serve invitation

Followup re permaculture list serve censorship& an invitation

I was recently dumped from his permaculture list serve by Lawrence London, to
prevent my posting an url so members could read Seed Saver's Exchange's side
of the Kent Whealy story, so I contacted some of the list members directly,
to tell them that and give them the url. I also joined a different
permaculture e-list, where free speech is not only tolerated but encouraged.

> From both groups of people, I've received accounts of Lawrence London's
tyrannical ?moderation? of his list over the years. I hadn't been aware of this
before, or I'd have moved on from his list serve long ago. I'm sharing with you
what folks have shared with me, for your own information.

#1
?I'm sorry to hear this. This is a continuing problem with the list.
It comes, it goes, it comes back.?

#2
?Lawrence - who "owns" the ibiblio permaculture list - has behaved this way
for at least a decade. I think it was at least a decade ago now that I was first
removed from his list with no notice, warning or explanation and for no apparent reason
related to list rules or etiquette (after having been on that list at least four or
five years).
I was reinstated a time or two (again with no notice or explanation), as were
others similarly cut off. And then we were - sooner or later - treated the
same again. Three times for myself IIRC, and one for an alter ego I joined as
in order to check for any improvement in list owner behavior. A pattern was
clearly recognizable and thereafter I chose to put my energy into alternative
lists.
There was one short (AFAIK) period around December 2007 where LL was somewhat
called to task by enough list members that he actually agreed to a trial of
having co-moderators. I do not know what became of that experiment, since my
alter ego was thrown off the list (in the usual way) while this experiment
was in progress. An alternative moderator asked if I'd unsubscribed myself,
or been removed. I replied I'd been removed. Never heard anything more.?

#3
?When reality proves self-proclaimed "experts" to be wrong, I side with reality and
have been booted from the conversation that occurs between those who "KNOW" the truth
instead of practice reality...
I empathize with your plight, and I no longer give a rip about those groups who don't
want to hear things other than their comfortable little "party line"....?

#4
?I'm sorry to hear this! You are in good company, some well-established
people have been kicked off the list. Quite a few have gotten it over the
years, and about five at least in the last couple of months. I tried to
create some policy for Lawrence so it wouldn't be so arbitrary, but it
doesn't look like he is following it though he agreed to?. He agreed publicly
to follow rules I proposed, which included being warned first, then suspended
and only then desubscribed.?

#5
?Yeah, Lawerence doesn't act like a moderator. Did you get my email off of
that list? I'm not on it anymore. During the thread about the national guard
he unsubscribed and later re-added me. I don't have time for his bizarre
behavior. He erases his own slander of folks off the archives.?

#6
?This is exactly why we set up the openpermaculture list. Please subscribe
and spread the word!?

It seems to me that true permaculture includes caring for people by being
open-minded and civil in our discourse with each other. What is the point of
discussing caring for people in general if we are uncaring of the people we
are having the discussion with?

I've joined the kinder, gentler list serve at openpermaculture.com and invite
you to do the same. Go to:
http://openpermaculture.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture_openpermaculture.org

Shivani Arjuna
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