permaculture

[Killian O'Brien <admin@pri-de.org>]

Hello all,

Linda, let me say unequivocally, there is no "side." Permaculture is 
populated by the same Bell Curve as every other part of life. The biggest 
problems I've had in trying to get something going here has been due to.... 
drum roll... other permaculturists and "greens." I've also reached out to 
some of those iconic names, and... trust me, you really don't want to know. 
One of them pretty much destroyed our business, so... let us all realize 
permaculture is a set of ideas supported by a body of techniques and 
knowledge. It is whatever any given permaculturist thinks it is and 
implements it as, regardless of what any of us individually and/or 
collectively think. Having spent thirteen years doing teaching and training 
at various levels, this neither bothers nor surprises me; teachers can be 
quite territorial and will implement their classroom as they see fit.

Let us at least be realistic in this discussion.

Personally, I try to honor what the founders put forth, but find myself 
having to ignore some base constraints placed by Bill. For example, if I 
waited for a "name" permaculturist, of any stature, I'd be sitting and 
spinning on my thumb. What Cory had to say about time and apprenticeship is 
great, but what are we to do when we can't offer enough money or cachet to 
one of you to come here to this post-industrial city to teach a course? And, 
what if one of you do come, but refuse to work with some of us here in the 
city, but embrace others? And, yes, this is a real-life situation I am 
describing.

I'm sorry, but time is short. We have a very, very small window of 
opportunity to avoid a hellish future. This approach to designing living 
systems is needed and there is no time like the present. So, let us all get 
over our differences and focus on what we share: What Bill and David wrought 
speaks for itself. If you implement it with the ethics and principles intact, 
and mindful of what the originators have to say about it, then you will be 
hard-pressed to do ill. Implement it as you will, within those parameters; 
the rest of us have no right to question you, if you do.

Has anyone asked Bill or David to weigh in here??

Let me be clear that the choice of "question" above was not careless. The 
discussion that has been going on has been interesting and fascinating, but 
it has edged from critique to criticism, which is questioning, not exploring.

Sorry that this comes off rather didactic, but I really don't see these 
points as much amenable to debate. The conversation is good, but let us 
really avoid judging how each of us goes about getting the concepts spread, 
and let us get over the idea that there is time to educate the number of 
experts needed to get this job done in the time we have and keep the level of 
teaching high enough to satisfy everyone. As Larry Santoyo is oft quoted as 
saying, it is time to do epic shit. Note he is not quoted as saying it *will* 
be time to do epic shit once we have enough expertly trained permaculturists. 

BTW, if any "names" would like to come do some work in Detroit, I'd be much 
obliged; holding on by the skin of our teeth here.


Cheers,

Killian O'Brien
PRI-De
admin@pri-de.org
(313) 647-4015

killiankob@yahoo.com
(760) 617-4693

-----Original Message-----
From: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org 
[mailto:permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of LBUZZELL@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 8:52 PM
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Movement thinking (was Designing a Movement)

Here are the words you used: "1) unfair 2) paranoid 3)  unnecessary 
fear-mongering  4) inaccurate"

While it can perhaps be argued that "unfair" and "inaccurate" are  pretty 
civilized, since when is calling a colleague "paranoid" not an ad hominem  
attack?
 
This kind of name-calling of a permaculture colleague (supposedly we're on  
the same side here?) is unworthy of permaculture and certainly not an  
example of the level of People Care I believe we aim for.  We can have free  
discussions without resorting to insults.
 
Linda
 
 
In a message dated 8/19/2010 2:59:04 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  
venaurafarm@bellsouth.net writes:

That is  not an ad hominem attack. You need to find a definition and read  
it.

If I say you're inaccurate in what you say and you accuse me of  being 
personally abusive then what am I to  think?

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