permaculture

[kevin skvorak <k.skvorak@gmail.com>]

thank you Scott for this reply,

again i appreciate it, and the opportunity to dialogue about these issues

you raised a question as to why i named people in this, specifically you and
Geoff.  This was intentional on my part (so i'm glad you asked!)

there are a few folks like you and geoff that have the
notoriety/instituitions (as they are) etc to get offered these opportunities
to work with the US military, middle eastern elites etc.
 You have put yourselves out there.  (these opportunties come with having to
put up with folks like myself as well i suppose)
 the main reason i was concerened about this whole issue enough to write
something, was not to feel holier-than-thou, or try to make some
irelevent point about who was more gooder or less gooder and who is the
biggest hipocrite etc.    i feel folks were misunderstanding me in this.

my concern is that you and geoff and others that are working with violent
non-PC instituions like the US military, might be "shitting" in the
downstream social-ecology of other permies.  i would hate to see some (as
yet future and hypothetical) permie across borders folks with the courage
and integrity of medicines sans frontiers get their heads chopped off by the
resistance forces somewhere because that resistance has already made the
connection between permaculture and their oppressors/elites etc

there was a reason i used the example in jordan that i did.  there are
plenty of lame permie projects out there that i could name-call on that are
only serving the privileged class but i chose to point that one out because
it relates to my concern at hand.  another way to say it might be- yes, by
working with the US military you can push a lot of dirt aroundand and
establish facts-on-the-ground, but if these projects come with a cost of
screwing things up for permies that might be working in a more
community-based fashion (which i prefer) in the future, it is too high a
cost imho.

i appreciate the opportunity to express myself on this. thanks for
listening.

kevin



*Scott Pittman* scott at permaculture.org
<permaculture%40lists.ibiblio.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5Bpermaculture%5D%20on%20an%20ethics%20of%20permaculture%20%28and%20the%20us%0A%09military%29&In-Reply-To=%3C5CB8516E69F24BA1A034B72580650796%40ScottPC%3E>



I would however like to comment on item 3. which I think is the heart of the
matter and displays a basic ignorance of what has been going on in
Afghanistan.



Comments in Blue



Scott Pittman

Director

Permaculture Institute

www.permaculture.org

-----Original Message-----
From: kevin skvorak [mailto:k.skvorak at gmail.com
<http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture>]
Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2010 8:23 AM
To: permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
<http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture>
Subject: [permaculture] on an ethics of permaculture (and the us military)



-snip-

3)  on the question of social ecology, the trainining of the soldiers did

not go on in a vacumm. there is a context, a context with an extremely

complex social ecology -  a war and occupation.  an occupation in which the

people on the ground in afghanistan see the US military with absolute and

reasonable suspicion.  not a very promising context in which to reach the

hearts and minds of afghan people with PC ideas delivered by that military..

 now it may well be that no harm has been done    and that no negative

outcome will come from it in the social ecologies on the ground there.

this is very possible.  I do believe tho that this concern  (aligning PC

ideas with non-PC institutions like the US military) is dangerous and

potentially counter-productive for PC at large.  it requires and deserves

careful consideration.   i hope people understand my point here.



Re: "there is a context, a context with an extremely complex social ecology"

The late and great General McCrystal was sent to Afganistan to solve a major
problem, the U.S. military was increasingly loosing the PR battle, in fact
they were despised.  The reason, apart from being an occupying force, was
that we were killing a boat load of civilians and the glib response of
collateral damage didn't wash! McCrystal was the one who decided to create
the agricultural project to work with small villagers, in conjunction with
his policy to stop the civilian violence.  I personally think this was way
outside the box for a West Point graduate and agreed that less violence and
more humanitarian aid was a step in the right direction.



I went through a little of my own soul searching and then agreed to accept
the Oklahoma National Guard into my PDC class for the first section on
"ethics", principals, and pattern the remaining 10 days were spent on hands
on projects that we felt would be helpful information to the agrarian
Afghani.



i want to offer another short example, and i know people will see this as a

personal attack, but be that as it may here goes.



If you truly wanted to avoid a personal attach then you could just eliminate
naming the people involved - the example would still get your point across.
I personally have much more difficulty in accepting the UAE super green
desert city of Masdar as an ethical pc project.



a few yrs ago Geoff Lawton was working on another effort in Jordan.  In this

case a USAID funded effort that required, in order to get the funding, that

it be an effort that included israeli participation.  (the project as i

understood it was something to do with "plant quarantine"  and i suspect the

Israeli and US interest was in access to genetic material from arab

countries traditional drought resistant varieties for israeli GMO

programs) it turned out that Geoff at al were not able to persuade very many

Jordanian NGO's to partner in the effort, something that  should have been

obvious to him as first glance at the proposal, yet it was something he

didn't seem to want to think about.  he just seemed to want to remain blind

to the social ecology involved, much less  the potential consequences to the

PC movement for being identified in the minds of jordanian and arab folks on

the ground as being aligned with a project like this.





so, for me, this question of "ethics" it is about effectiveness in the

movement. if an average arab, afghan, US, any person anywhere has their very

first exposure to PC being a press release from the Pentagon about their new

green PC intiative to 'help' the people of afghanistan, (or whatever the

latest military effort is)  do you believe this is going to advance, or

setback the movement of PC ideas into these communities?



I would love to see a Pentagon release about this training - perhaps it
would lead to training all the National Guard troops in agricultural and
appropriate technology for the rural population.  Combine this with Rosemary
Morrows' work building gardens in the captol and we might just come up with
a major change in attitude and the parameters of the "social ecology".





That's enough for now.  I realize this is somewhat challenging stuff.



I don't find this "stuff" challenging in the least but, rather, lacking in a
deep understanding of the subject matter, including ethics, which I think
are far more complex than has been offered in this conversation.



-snip-



with respect,

kevin



------------------------------

   - Previous message: [permaculture] on an ethics of permaculture (and the
   us military)
   <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/2010-August/037187.html>
   - Next message: [permaculture] More on Senate Bill S510
   <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/2010-August/037188.html>
   - *Messages sorted by:* [ date
]<https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/2010-August/date.html#37190>
[
   thread 
]<https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/2010-August/thread.html#37190>
[
   subject 
]<https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/2010-August/subject.html#37190>
[
   author 
]<https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/2010-August/author.html#37190>

------------------------------
More information about the permaculture mailing
list<http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture>