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  • From: Juergen Botz <jurgen@botz.org>
  • To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] Drugs in urine
  • Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 18:55:23 -0300

On 08/11/2009 11:45 PM, Suraj Kumar wrote:
> The fundamental problem is we're talking about man made chemicals
> and we have no clue on even how they react amongst each other -
> [...] So if anybody tells you "exactly how much you need to dilute
> the urine", tell them they are deluded due to this Reductionist View
> of Life and it's phenomenon.

Indeed. Many pharmaceuticals are bioactive in parts per trillion or
even less... absurdly small amounts. And many of them are highly
persistent in the environment, so they can build up over time.

I highly recommend the book "The lost language of plants" by Stephen
Harrod Buhner. He goes into this at length, and it's some of the
scariest stuff I've ever read.

> On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 8:39 AM, Lisa Rollens<rollens@fidnet.com> wrote:
>> In a recent organic gardening class that I teach I was passing on
>> info about using urine as a fertilizer and nitrogen source. I
>> encouraged not using urine from people using drugs, but didn't know
>> exactly which drugs should not be put into the environment.

None. No, really. Pharmaceuticals are bioactive by definition,
and you just don't know what their effects on the environment
are. Yes, many of them come from plants, but even some of
those can be harmfull in their concentrated pharmaceutical form.

>> Hormones seems like a definite no-no,

Note that that would seem to rule out using pee from any woman on
birth control as a fertilizer.

>> I don't think antibiotics are a problem...

Antibiotics certainly are a problem!

>> seems like I've read that they break down in compost and
>> in the soil.

Depends on the antibiotic. Antibiotics aren't a chemical class of
similar substances, they include highly dissimilar chemicals which all
just happen to be able to kill bacteria and potentially other living
cells. In your compost and soil what does the "breaking down" are
bacteria and fungi... the bacteria won't be able to break down an
antibiotic because it kills them. Fungi may eventually do so, but how
soon will depend on the fungal composition of the soil and the type of
antibiotic. In the meantime, you've killed off most bacteria and the
ones that come back first are the ones that are best at evolving
resistance rather than the ones that are best suited to natural
processes you're trying to promote by using urine as fertilizer.

The best thing to do is to not take the drugs in the first place. 99%
of all the drugs people take these days do more harm than good, and
there BETTER natural treatments available. You mentioned
blood-pressure drugs, which are a perfect case in point. If you have
high blood pressure, by far the best way to treat it is by changing
life-style and diet, and if that's not enough at first, there are
dozens of herbs that are highly effective hypontensives. The drugs on
the other hand have a host of side-effects and WILL do massive harm
to your body over the long run, not to mention the environment when
you pee them out.

Since most people are unwilling or unable to totally give up their
drug habits, I would say this to them... DON'T use pee as direct
fertilizer, instead pee on your mulch or compost, and spread it around
as much as possible (i.e. never pee twice on the same spot). It's
easier anyway, as you don't have to dilute it, and mulches and composts
have more biodiversity (including fungal) than most soils, so you have
a better chance something will break down any nasty stuff in your pee
before it does too much harm.

And do read "The lost language of plants".

:j





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