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  • From: Harmon Seaver <hseaver@gmail.com>
  • To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] conservatism/food/references requested
  • Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 16:28:01 -0600

Ben Martin Horst wrote:
> Harmon Seaver wrote:
>> But there's something else that cities have now that wasn't the case
>> back in the Depression -- gangs. Sure you had bootleggers back then, but
>> not that numerous. Gangs in the US already outnumber the entire US
>> military and all police forces by a very large number. They are becoming
>> very organized and networked, even internationally. They use cellphones
>> and computers, and could, in most larger cities, effectively wipe out
>> the police force almost overnight. Even now, look what's happening in
>> Brazil, where gangs attack the police stations.
>>
>> When the times get really tough, gangs will rule the cities. They
>> will move out from the ghettos and take over the better neighborhoods
>> with impunity.
>>
>
>
> This statement smacks of white, privileged, middle-class paranoia
> about poor people of color. Note that I'm not accusing Harmon in
> particular of racism, but pointing out racist undercurrents in this
> sort of reasoning.

Absolutely nothing racist about it, just simple reality based logic.
And no one who actually knows me would ever consider me racist -- I'm
part native american, but also lived with black friends when I was
younger. In more recent times, when working in Mobile, AL, I hung out
almost exclusively at a black bar in the downtown where I was usually
the only white face around.
But like it or not, the gang-bangers are reality, and when food and
fuel get short, they will use their muscle. In fact I'm rather amazed
that they haven't been raiding the upscale neighborhoods already, that's
where the money is.


> "We've got to guard our nice neighborhoods against
> the brown people in the ghetto." Forget that the entire structure of
> US society has conspired for centuries to oppress brown people and
> ensure they stay poor. And why no concern about all the rural
> right-wing Michigan Militia types who are going to go crazy and start
> slaughtering all the hippies and gays as soon as times get really
> rough?

Militias? Those are pretty minuscule in numbers these days I think,
and none of them ever had much animosity towards hippies, AFAIK, not
sure about gays. But I'll bet you a fair number of the old militia
people were pot smokers and had long hair.


They scare me a lot more than any urban gangs ... and they're
> at least as well armed.
>
> If the collapse comes, I don't see any reason, practical or ethical,
> to side with the cops over gangs. In many cities, the cops are at
> least as dirty as the gangs they supposedly police, and depending on
> what sort of government we end up with, the cops are as likely to end
> up as agents of repression as they are to be protectors.

Most assuredly so. They are already. But I think they'll have a very
difficult time dealing with whatever is going on in the future, as their
budgets will shrink due to much less tax money being generated from out
of work citizens. Not to mention that it's hard to be effective when you
are constantly worried about being shot in the back.
The military is a bigger threat in that regard. Many people think
that a lot of the Iraq thing is just on the job training for the city
warfare they foresee in US cities. And, of course, what we can see
happening in Baghdad with ethnic cleansing is already happening in some
US cities between blacks and latinos. Unfortunately --

> Sure, gangs
> are hardly composed of nice people...

Well, I don't know about that -- there are probably just as many
"nice" gang members as there "nice" people percentage wise anywhere.
Probably a lot better folks than you'll find on Wall Street or the
Hamptons or your local country club.

> but if you've got global
> economic collapse, then you're going to have at least a partial
> collapse of the international drug trade, and most of the dirty money
> goes out of the equation. For gangs to survive, they'll have to start
> representing at least some of the interests of their communities.
>
I think they already do. Gangs are just another form of "tribe", and
there's nothing wrong with that. Probably we'll all have to become a lot
more tribal.

> Of course, the best option is to side with neither the cops, the
> gangs, or the militias, but to build alternative structures based on
> something other than the violent assertion and maintenance of power.
>

And just stay as far away from cities as we can get.


--
Harmon Seaver




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