permaculture

["J Kolenovsky" <garden@hal-pc.org>]

I started one 6 months ago but it didn't go anywhere. These are. Keep it
up.
-- 
J. Kolenovsky, habitat environmentalist  
Energy shortages proves its right.
Peak Oil is changing your lifestyle.
www.energybulletin.net/ 
www.peak-oil-news.info/  









   


  

-----Original Message-----
From: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of
permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: July 17, 2007 3:09 PM
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: permaculture Digest, Vol 54, Issue 19

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Today's Topics:

   1. Seed Starting Supplies &  Soil blocks (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
   2. Seed Starting Supplies &  Soil blocks (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
   3. Re: Seed Starting Supplies &  Soil blocks (mIEKAL aND)
   4. Re: Seed Starting Supplies &  Soil blocks
      (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
   5. Re: Distiller's Dried Grain with Solubles Recipes
      (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
   6. Re: Distiller's Dried Grain with Solubles Recipes
      (lbsaltzman@aol.com)
   7. Re: Distiller's Dried Grain with Solubles Recipes
      (woodsjay@cox.net)
   8. Re: Seed Starting Supplies &  Soil blocks (mIEKAL aND)
   9. Re: Growing potatoes without risk of potatoe blight. (Jamie R)
  10. Re: Manioc (casava) guilds? (Jamie R)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 12:07:26 -0400
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflj@bellsouth.net>
Subject: [permaculture] Seed Starting Supplies &  Soil blocks
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <469CE93E.3010203@bellsouth.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed


Date:   Sun, 15 Jul 2007 16:35:37 EDT
From:   Heirloomketchup@aol.com
-

Seed Starting Supplies
Soil blocks, Vacuum Seeders

from steve mcgowan, heirloomketchup@aol Dot com

Oil based plastic plant trays & pots are not recycled.
    Avoid cheap flimsy plastic trays, pots, Speedling trays,
6-packs which are all manufactured from Oil based plastics and
which ends up in Landfills because its too hard for recyclers to clean
economically.
Wash off all the dirt before recycling.
Secondly, many of the same do not even have the Recycling designation
stamped on them; they go direct to landfills.

Alternatives are:
1)Soil blocks, used in Europe (Netherlands) for years in commercial veg
pdn
2)Cow Pots (made from moulded manure)
3) Biodegradable pots made from wood, corn and starch byproducts.
Google for them

Vacuum seeder: manual and electric wand seeder, will customize.
  www.    gro-morent.com/wandseeder.htm

*GRO-MOR **INC. 413-743-2064*
Adams, MA 01220 Email: gromor@verizon  DOT net

Motorized Blockers:

US Global Resources, Seattle, 298-722-3998 www.  usgr. com

Manual Blockers

Ladbrooke Soil Blockers  5 sizes - Specifications ( www .ladbrooke.co.uk
)

Mini 20 (3/4 in blocks)for sprouting & putting in larger 2 or 4" blocks.
It works sell but they don't transer into larger blocks very well.

Mini 4,   2' (4 blocks) hand held $31.00

Mini 5, 1 1/2"  (5 blocks " ) $31.00

Multi 20, Multi 12:  1 1/2" (20) or  2" (12) Floor blocker $189 ( a 3" 6
block was made- hard to find)

Maxi 1 , 4" single block hand blocker $105

In USA,  Available from: www.________

Fedcoseeds.com ,

  Johnnysseeds.com

groworganic.com (Peaceful Valley Garden Supply, Grass Valley, CA)

territorial-seed.com/stores/1/search/cfm

What are, How to;
Soil blocks are made from peat moss, sand, compost &
nutrients (microrhizzae, greensand, lime, bloodmeal, feathermeal,
alfalfa and cottenseed meal,etc).

    I use the 1 1/2 inch (20 blocks) floor blocker. In 4 days w 2
helpers
started and hand seeded (wet toothpick method-1 per block, ) 10,000
blocks and built a 3 tiered  shelf system in my 15 ft x 32 ft
greenhouse. I only lost 600 because I missed watering once.

    I found the plants ( all heirloom tomatoes) take off like a rocket
once they sprout- in 5 weeks I had 14 inch tomato plants (10,000 in my
greenhouse 15 x 32 ft) and I don't have to do anything but water. No
potting on, I just don't bother.

The dry stuff is blended, then watered in a plastic mixing tub for
concrete (or on a driveway, piece of plywood.)
One plunges the soil blocker into the wet mix, fills it, scrapes off
excess and squeezes (plunger)  the blocks  out.
  I put them in a ( free ) 17 by 17inch nursery flat lined with plastic
window screen(16 x16") that I get at the local nursery. Some of the
flimsier ones require two flats. They last for some years, 3 so far.

Mix recipes: google for more
   The mix I make is from a recipe in Eliott Colemans book: The New
Organic Grower, 2nd ed.isbn 0-9300031-75-X, Chelsea Green Pub. $24.95
  It has directions, recipes, contact addresses, research data links and
general market farming "propaganda'- great info. The claim of hand
making 3000 blocks an hour is baloney unless you are completely
streamlined.

Transplants in Soil Blocks by David Tresemer, 1986, pub by Hand & Foot.
ltd, a division of Green River Toos, Brattleboro, VT  Photo copies are
sold by groworganic.com-Peaceful Valley Farm Supply $10.00

  Before I transplant soil blocked plants, I soak them with / in a
solution of beneficial nematodes, moremicrorhizzae and fish & algae
fertilizer mixed in water or compost tea. You are adding aditional
organic matter to the soil that helps improve it in a sustainable
manner.
  Two inch blocks of lettuce set on 12 inch grid = 5 tons compost /
acre(E.Coleman)



-- 
Lawrence F. London, Jr.
Venaura Farm
lflj@bellsouth.net.net
http://venaurafarm.blogspot.com/
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/market-farming



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 12:11:59 -0400
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflj@bellsouth.net>
Subject: [permaculture] Seed Starting Supplies &  Soil blocks
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <469CEA4F.4000106@bellsouth.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed


Date:   Sun, 15 Jul 2007 16:35:37 EDT
From:   Heirloomketchup@aol.com
-

Seed Starting Supplies
Soil blocks, Vacuum Seeders

from steve mcgowan, heirloomketchup@aol Dot com

Oil based plastic plant trays & pots are not recycled.
    Avoid cheap flimsy plastic trays, pots, Speedling trays,
6-packs which are all manufactured from Oil based plastics and
which ends up in Landfills because its too hard for recyclers to clean
economically.
Wash off all the dirt before recycling.
Secondly, many of the same do not even have the Recycling designation
stamped on them; they go direct to landfills.

Alternatives are:
1)Soil blocks, used in Europe (Netherlands) for years in commercial veg
pdn
2)Cow Pots (made from moulded manure)
3) Biodegradable pots made from wood, corn and starch byproducts.
Google for them

Vacuum seeder: manual and electric wand seeder, will customize.
  www.    gro-morent.com/wandseeder.htm

*GRO-MOR **INC. 413-743-2064*
Adams, MA 01220 Email: gromor@verizon  DOT net

Motorized Blockers:

US Global Resources, Seattle, 298-722-3998 www.  usgr. com

Manual Blockers

Ladbrooke Soil Blockers  5 sizes - Specifications ( www .ladbrooke.co.uk
)

Mini 20 (3/4 in blocks)for sprouting & putting in larger 2 or 4" blocks.
It works sell but they don't transer into larger blocks very well.

Mini 4,   2' (4 blocks) hand held $31.00

Mini 5, 1 1/2"  (5 blocks " ) $31.00

Multi 20, Multi 12:  1 1/2" (20) or  2" (12) Floor blocker $189 ( a 3" 6
block was made- hard to find)

Maxi 1 , 4" single block hand blocker $105

In USA,  Available from: www.________

Fedcoseeds.com ,

  Johnnysseeds.com

groworganic.com (Peaceful Valley Garden Supply, Grass Valley, CA)

territorial-seed.com/stores/1/search/cfm

What are, How to;
Soil blocks are made from peat moss, sand, compost &
nutrients (microrhizzae, greensand, lime, bloodmeal, feathermeal,
alfalfa and cottenseed meal,etc).

    I use the 1 1/2 inch (20 blocks) floor blocker. In 4 days w 2
helpers
started and hand seeded (wet toothpick method-1 per block, ) 10,000
blocks and built a 3 tiered  shelf system in my 15 ft x 32 ft
greenhouse. I only lost 600 because I missed watering once.

    I found the plants ( all heirloom tomatoes) take off like a rocket
once they sprout- in 5 weeks I had 14 inch tomato plants (10,000 in my
greenhouse 15 x 32 ft) and I don't have to do anything but water. No
potting on, I just don't bother.

The dry stuff is blended, then watered in a plastic mixing tub for
concrete (or on a driveway, piece of plywood.)
One plunges the soil blocker into the wet mix, fills it, scrapes off
excess and squeezes (plunger)  the blocks  out.
  I put them in a ( free ) 17 by 17inch nursery flat lined with plastic
window screen(16 x16") that I get at the local nursery. Some of the
flimsier ones require two flats. They last for some years, 3 so far.

Mix recipes: google for more
   The mix I make is from a recipe in Eliott Colemans book: The New
Organic Grower, 2nd ed.isbn 0-9300031-75-X, Chelsea Green Pub. $24.95
  It has directions, recipes, contact addresses, research data links and
general market farming "propaganda'- great info. The claim of hand
making 3000 blocks an hour is baloney unless you are completely
streamlined.

Transplants in Soil Blocks by David Tresemer, 1986, pub by Hand & Foot.
ltd, a division of Green River Toos, Brattleboro, VT  Photo copies are
sold by groworganic.com-Peaceful Valley Farm Supply $10.00

  Before I transplant soil blocked plants, I soak them with / in a
solution of beneficial nematodes, moremicrorhizzae and fish & algae
fertilizer mixed in water or compost tea. You are adding aditional
organic matter to the soil that helps improve it in a sustainable
manner.
  Two inch blocks of lettuce set on 12 inch grid = 5 tons compost /
acre(E.Coleman)





------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 11:27:32 -0500
From: mIEKAL aND <dtv@mwt.net>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Seed Starting Supplies &  Soil blocks
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <06436978-B24F-4E97-A150-46E759AECB7B@mwt.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed

I have yet to buy any potting trays in the 20 years I've been  
growing, but I get trays & pots free from landscapers, roadside  
pickup & what people bring me.   If you put them away for the winter  
I've managed to reuse some of them for 10-12 seasons...

~mIEKAL


On Jul 17, 2007, at 11:07 AM, Lawrence F. London, Jr. wrote:

>
> Date:         Sun, 15 Jul 2007 16:35:37 EDT
> From:         Heirloomketchup@aol.com
> -
>
> Seed Starting Supplies
> Soil blocks, Vacuum Seeders
>
> from steve mcgowan, heirloomketchup@aol Dot com
>
> Oil based plastic plant trays & pots are not recycled.


------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 12:28:01 -0400
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflj@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Seed Starting Supplies &  Soil blocks
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <469CEE11.2000905@bellsouth.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed

mIEKAL aND wrote:

> I have yet to buy any potting trays in the 20 years I've been  
> growing, but I get trays & pots free from landscapers, roadside  
> pickup & what people bring me.   If you put them away for the winter  
> I've managed to reuse some of them for 10-12 seasons...


Have you tried soil blocks?


-- 
Lawrence F. London, Jr.
Venaura Farm
lflj@bellsouth.net.net
http://venaurafarm.blogspot.com/
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/market-farming



------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 12:43:42 -0400
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflj@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Distiller's Dried Grain with Solubles
        Recipes
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <469CF1BE.3040802@bellsouth.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed


If it is intended for livestock you may be taking great risks eating
DDGWS.
It may have a negative cumulative effect, maybe affect vital organs.
Might have undesirable ingredients from China too.

I think I'd stick to food approved for human consumption.
-- 
Lawrence F. London, Jr.
Venaura Farm
lflj@bellsouth.net.net
http://venaurafarm.blogspot.com/
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/market-farming



------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 12:54:08 -0400
From: lbsaltzman@aol.com
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Distiller's Dried Grain with Solubles
        Recipes
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <8C996AA39EE5B37-C2C-5101@WEBMAIL-DF19.sysops.aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Yes and organic at that.? When true cost analysis is done including
future health problems organic food is cheap at the price.


-----Original Message-----
From: Lawrence F. London, Jr. <lflj@bellsouth.net>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 9:43 am
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Distiller's Dried Grain with Solubles
Recipes




If it is intended for livestock you may be taking great risks eating
DDGWS.
It may have a negative cumulative effect, maybe affect vital organs.
Might have undesirable ingredients from China too.

I think I'd stick to food approved for human consumption.
-- 
Lawrence F. London, Jr.
Venaura Farm
lflj@bellsouth.net.net
http://venaurafarm.blogspot.com/
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/market-farming

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------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 12:58:48 -0400
From: <woodsjay@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Distiller's Dried Grain with Solubles
        Recipes
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <6724903.1184691528192.JavaMail.root@eastrmwml10>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

---- "Lawrence F. London wrote: 
> 
> If it is intended for livestock you may be taking great risks eating
DDGWS.

Then again I may not. What are the odds compared to human approved.

> It may have a negative cumulative effect, maybe affect vital organs.

Then again it may not. What are the odds compared to human approved? I'm
a type II diabetic and a lot of human approved food will run my blood
sugar clear out of sight. And that doesn't seem like a good thing.

> Might have undesirable ingredients from China too.

Then again it might not. What are the odds compared to human approved?

> 
> I think I'd stick to food approved for human consumption.

I don't think I'll wait around for somebody else to approve my food.

> -- 
> Lawrence F. London, Jr.
> Venaura Farm
> lflj@bellsouth.net.net
> http://venaurafarm.blogspot.com/
> http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/market-farming
> 
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> 
> 
> 



------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 12:09:11 -0500
From: mIEKAL aND <dtv@mwt.net>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Seed Starting Supplies &  Soil blocks
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <E1F7191E-8DC3-4089-9E20-E81FC869E359@mwt.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed

Most of the perennials that I grow out from seed, spend 2 years in  
containers, getting planted the 2nd autumn, & they are in 1/2 gallon  
to 2 gallon containers.  Not sure soil blocks would work with that  
type application.  I've used soil blocks for starting garden annuals,  
but that's a small part of what I do here.

~mIEKAL


On Jul 17, 2007, at 11:28 AM, Lawrence F. London, Jr. wrote:

> mIEKAL aND wrote:
>
>> I have yet to buy any potting trays in the 20 years I've been
>> growing, but I get trays & pots free from landscapers, roadside
>> pickup & what people bring me.   If you put them away for the winter
>> I've managed to reuse some of them for 10-12 seasons...
>
>
> Have you tried soil blocks?



------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 19:09:51 +0000
From: "Jamie R" <smartplantguy@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Growing potatoes without risk of potatoe
        blight.
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <BAY102-F3171687BB3859ADF11A16FBAF90@phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

I have both observed wild potatoes on and around Chiloe Island in Chile
and 
attempted growing them. The variety I grew was French Fingerling and it
has 
turned out to be quite a resilient form. I started growing it in my
parents 
garden just outside of Vancouver, BC, three years ago and it still comes

back every spring. In fact it's become a bit weedy. I originally grew it
on 
the ground using a peat/compost/manure mix, with the tubers planted
whole on 
top, and straw piled on top. This way I could continuously harvest
tubers 
with destroying the plants. Now that it's spread naturally, I have to
dig 
for the tubers, but so far I've seen no sign of scab.

It's funny that the name we've given this variety of Potato is the
"French 
Fingerling", yet, while I was on Chiloe Island, they had papas nativas
for 
sale at all the tourist vendors. They were selling mixed bags of
potatoes 
including round purple, crescent yellow and pink tubers as well as, low
and 
behold, a variety that looks exactly like French Fingerlings. From what
I've 
read, many scientist now believe that Chiloe Island is actually the home
of 
original potato used in cultivation since the time of the Incas. Makes
one 
think how and why we derive these names for certain plants, but
anyways...

One of my objectives while I was in the area of Chiloe Island was to
find 
potatoes growing wild. After many failed feild trips, days of drudging 
through mud and temperate rainforest, I finally came across a beach
where 
they were growing abundantly. They grew in the areas of the beach that
were 
being colonized by vegetation, and were, as such, colonizers themselves.

The most interesting thing I noticed was the soil they were growing in:
it 
was composed of sand and peat-like material mixed with oceanic debris.
This 
debris was a cocktail of seaweed, drift wood, fish waste, clam and
oyster 
shells and chitinus material such as crab and shrimp shells. All of
these 
materials probably contributed to creating a very rich and acidic soil,
but 
one of them has recently come up in agricultural research as a control
for 
Streptomyces spp, which includes Potato Scab. This research has
discovered 
that a chemical called chitosan is produced by shrimp shells and that
this 
chemical helps to bolster plant immunity. They've also found evidence
that 
by composting shrimp shells, beneficial Streptomyces spp increased in 
number. These non-pathogenic fungi actually help to prevent scab, rather

than cause it.

Unfortunately, I haven't had a chance to test shrimp or crab waste out
in 
the field, so I can't verify if these actually work in the home and/or
farm 
as well as one might think they should. Perhaps other people have
experience 
with this?

Here are some good abstracts on some of the research mentioned:
http://www.springerlink.com/content/u1m6253r73qq4823/
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4534965.html

James Reinert
East Vancouver, BC, Canada

>From: permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org
>Reply-To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>Subject: permaculture Digest, Vol 54, Issue 17
>Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 12:00:14 -0400
>
>Send permaculture mailing list submissions to
>       permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>
>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>       http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>       permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org
>
>You can reach the person managing the list at
>       permaculture-owner@lists.ibiblio.org
>
>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>than "Re: Contents of permaculture digest..."
>
>
>Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: Looking for good examples of the use of berms and swales
>       &... (Tommy Tolson)
>    2. Growing potaoes without risk of potatoe blight.
>       (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
>    3. Re: Time to pick up our hats? (Robyn Williamson)
>    4. Distiller's Dried Grain with Solubles Recipes (woodsjay@cox.net)
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Message: 1
>Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2007 11:33:39 -0500
>From: Tommy Tolson <healinghawk@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: [permaculture] Looking for good examples of the use of
>       berms and swales &...
>To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
>Message-ID: <469A4C63.9050001@earthlink.net>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
>The object of swales is to hold water on the land as long as possible
to
>allow as much to sink in as will.  Observe the land to see how the
water
>runs off it, then swale in opposition to that flow.  If you swale on
>level, water sits in the swales until it soaks in or evaporates.  Frogs
>love these waterholes.  If you have to, keep them full enough to allow
>the tadpoles to mature as frogs are a sentinel species and if you have
>them, you're doing something right.  Berms of the soil brought out of
>the swales thus stay moist longer.  Properly mulched, they never dry
>out.  The secret is to keep the berms covered with a thick layer of
>mulch.  Avoid sun contact with the soil, on berms or not, except where
>there is enough water to form permanent mud.  Plant annuals in the
>decomposing layer of mulch, not in the berm soil proper.  Trees and
>berries with their more extensive root systems need to be planted in
the
>berm.  Shape the berm so the tree or berry sits in a basin that holds
>water instead of letting it run off.  If annuals need support they can
>be staked or caged.  Kept moist, clay/adobe berms need no amendments.
>Calcium will help to break up the clay if you want to amend, but you're
>faced with bringing in something from off-site.  Shell flour works, and
>comes in 50-pound bags.  Broadcast it on the berm before initial
>mulching.  That's all we did, and I could stick my hands into the soil
>of adobe berms up past my wrists in the height of the dry season.
>
>Tommy Tolson
>Austin, TX
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 2
>Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2007 19:14:16 -0400
>From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflj@bellsouth.net>
>Subject: [permaculture] Growing potaoes without risk of potatoe
>       blight.
>To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
>Message-ID: <469AAA48.70202@bellsouth.net>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
>
>
>Anyone else have any thoughts on this?
>
>-------- Original Message --------
>Subject: Re: [SANET-MG] BBC NEWS | UK | England | Tyne/Wear |
Researchers 
>hail organic potatoes
>Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2007 00:31:43 +0100
>From: John D'hondt <dhondt@EIRCOM.NET>
>To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
>
> > While we're at it we might as well put together a complete list of
all
> > soil-dwelling
> > growth promoting, disease preventing, nitrogen-fixing, soil health
and
> > biodiversity-building microorganisms,
> > invertebrates and other organisms. Elaine has a list of 7 of the
most
> > important.
> > We could use them as primary categories to build on.
> >
> > LL
>
>I am probably a great disappointment to others in my profession of 
>biologist
>but I have so far not had too much interest in species specific
>relationships in soil. We know there are at least 25.000 (maybe 40.000)
>different species of micro organism in an average spoonful of soil. The
>number of possible relationships between all these organisms is a bit
too
>complex for my purpose (which was growing potatoes organically in
Ireland
>without having problems with blight).
>
>My reasoning was that there was probably some organism in all that lot
that
>would live on Phytophtora infestans (blight) and that would thus
protect
>potato crops from this disease if only it were plentiful enough.
>To get it plentiful I grew blight prone potato varieties and let the
>diseased plant-parts rot in situ then planted more potatoes on top that
I
>left in the ground over the wettest winter imaginable.
>
>As I explained before on this list (it is slightly more complex than
the
>very shortened story here) I have been able to grow potatoes absolutely
>blight free for at least 15 years now. Whether my guardian angel
organism 
>is
>Pisolithus tinctorius I doubt because we don't have
"dog-turd-mushrooms"
>here at all.
>
>I was interested in growing healthy potatoes in the first place for my
own
>family and that has been successful but to get rich out of potato
blight it
>is necessary to come up with specific names so that patents can be
secured.
>That I will gladly leave to someone else for I can see a few other
>priorities in my life.
>
>Wishing you every success though,
>John
>
>
>
>-------- Original Message --------
>Subject: Re: [SANET-MG] BBC NEWS | UK | England | Tyne/Wear |
Researchers 
>hail organic potatoes
>Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2007 19:12:53 -0400
>From: Lawrence F. London, Jr. <lflj@bellsouth.net>
>Organization: Venaura Farm
>To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group 
><SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>
>
>
>John D'hondt wrote:
>
>  > My reasoning was that there was probably some organism in all that
lot
>  > that would live on Phytophtora infestans (blight) and that would
thus
>  > protect potato crops from this disease if only it were plentiful 
>enough.
>  > To get it plentiful I grew blight prone potato varieties and let
the
>  > diseased plant-parts rot in situ then planted more potatoes on top
that
>  > I left in the ground over the wettest winter imaginable.
>  >
>  > As I explained before on this list (it is slightly more complex
than 
>the
>  > very shortened story here) I have been able to grow potatoes
absolutely
>  > blight free for at least 15 years now. Whether my guardian angel
>  > organism is Pisolithus tinctorius I doubt because we don't have
>  > "dog-turd-mushrooms" here at all.
>
>Is this procedure one that you would recommend to anyone anywhere to
use in 
>any climate and soil condition
>or would you only try this under certain growing conditions, or a range
of 
>conditions?
>
>
>--
>Lawrence F. London, Jr.
>Venaura Farm
>lflj@bellsouth.net.net
>http://venaurafarm.blogspot.com/
>http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/market-farming
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 3
>Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 18:20:41 +1000
>From: Robyn Williamson <robinet@aapt.net.au>
>Subject: Re: [permaculture] Time to pick up our hats?
>To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>Message-ID: <7153B7DB-3375-11DC-861D-0030657170AA@aapt.net.au>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
>
>Right on Toby, access to cheap food keeps wages down too according to
>Barry Healy in the Australian Green Left Weekly of 14 July 2007.  Read
>the full story here:
>
>http://www.greenleft.org.au/2007/717/37245
>
>Robyn Williamson
>
>On Monday, July 16, 2007, at 02:00 am,
>permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org/Toby Hemenway wrote:
>
> > Governments know that food shortages
> > are what bring governments down, and The Powers That Be will
sacrifice
> > nearly every other resource--transportation, schools, health care,
> > consumer goods, you name it--before they will let food become
scarce.
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 4
>Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 9:06:54 -0400
>From: <woodsjay@cox.net>
>Subject: [permaculture] Distiller's Dried Grain with Solubles Recipes
>To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
>Cc: Robyn Williamson <robinet@aapt.net.au>
>Message-ID: <3034840.1184591214719.JavaMail.root@eastrmwml10>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
>Since cheap food seems to be on a lot of people's minds right now, I
though 
>I'd write about my first contact with DDGS. It has always seemed
reasonable 
>to me that I would grow the perennials and let the commercial farmers
grow 
>the annuals. (That is because I suck at growing things. The trees don't

>mind. The asparagus almost cares. The rhubarb dies.)
>
>What was available to me was 50 lb sacks of DDGS based on corn. (This
is 
>Omaha NE.) It is a light yellow-brown course powder with a slight 
>winey-yeasty odor. It costs $7.00 per sack at the feed store. (Yes, it
was 
>expected that it will be fed to animals. There is no labelling for
human 
>consumption. However, dead animals due to feed reflect badly on the
store 
>as a supplier. I have assumed that the same applies to human beings.)
>
>What follows is a few things that didn't work.
>
>I boiled it to try for soup or porridge. It sits in the bottom of the
pot 
>and doesn't expand or soften. It has a slightly sour and bitter taste.
My 
>wife hated it. I thought it was edible. (I think most everything that 
>doesn't bite back is edible. Peas are not edible except under special 
>circumstances such as eating at a friend's place.)
>
>I added salt and then curry powder. The salt killed the bitter taste.
The 
>curry powder stayed as a taste of it's own and didn't modify the flavor
of 
>the DDGS.
>
>I don't recommend it in any large quantity in soups or porridge.
>
>It is a high protein foodstuff and therefore encourages working with
it. It 
>is likely (for the corn version only) that much of the protein is 
>unavailable to human being. I'm trying to find out how much of the
protein 
>the yeast has reworked (which would be available). By separating the
powder 
>from the little gritties a reasonable estimate could be made.
>
>It should be possible to make a DDGS loaded wheat bread which is likely
to 
>have the weight and consistency of lead hockey pucks.
>
>I am encouraged to try more things. Please feel free to contribute
ideas on 
>the subject.
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>permaculture mailing list
>permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>
>
>End of permaculture Digest, Vol 54, Issue 17
>********************************************

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------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 20:08:44 +0000
From: "Jamie R" <smartplantguy@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Manioc (casava) guilds?
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <BAY102-F131499EB7E7DFAEF0F494ABAF90@phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Hi Juergen, while I was living and volunteering in Kalimantan,
Indonesia, I 
helped with building some organic farms. Kasava greens were a major
staple 
of our diet in that area. After doing some interviews with the local
Dayaks 
(the first nations people of the area) I learnt that they interplant
them 
with pineapple. They combine these two because the Kasava root and
pineapple 
fruit mature at roughly the same time, they both like the same kind of
soil, 
and the pineapple doesn't mind being unearthed when the kasava root is 
harvested, because they usually divide the plants after they flower and
bare 
fruit anyway.

I attempted planting these two together myself and they grow really well

together. When I return to Kalimantan, things I'd like to try with this
duo 
are a bean that could climb the kasava stalks and add nitrogen to the
soil 
and a ground cover to act as a live mulch, most likely a tropical Lotus 
species, again, to help add Nitrogen and so on.

Hopefully that will give you some helpful ideas, cheers.

James Reinert
East Vancouver, BC, Canada


>From: permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org
>Reply-To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>Subject: permaculture Digest, Vol 54, Issue 18
>Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 12:00:28 -0400
>
>Send permaculture mailing list submissions to
>       permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>
>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>       http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>       permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org
>
>You can reach the person managing the list at
>       permaculture-owner@lists.ibiblio.org
>
>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>than "Re: Contents of permaculture digest..."
>
>
>Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: Distiller's Dried Grain with Solubles Recipes
>       (lbsaltzman@aol.com)
>    2. articles by Roland Bunch (Charles de Matas)
>    3. Articles by Roland Bunch (Charles de Matas)
>    4. Manioc (casava) guilds? (Juergen Botz)
>    5. Keyline vs spring loaded shanks (msnow)
>    6. Re: Peak Oil - (Marjory)
>    7. Re: Peak Oil - (Tommy Tolson)
>    8. Re: Manioc (casava) guilds? (Robyn Francis)
>    9. Permaforest Trust July 07 Update- Big Changes-  Taking It to
>       the Next Level (timwinton)
>   10. Organic Farming Beats No-Till? (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Message: 1
>Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 12:50:28 -0400
>From: lbsaltzman@aol.com
>Subject: Re: [permaculture] Distiller's Dried Grain with Solubles
>       Recipes
>To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>Message-ID: <8C995E08C42A0EB-1188-27C9@webmail-db07.sysops.aol.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>This sounds alike a product that I wouldn't eat under any
circumstances. It 
>is probably full of pesticides and could well be made from genetically 
>engineered corn. I am sure that it is also nutritionally deficient in
many 
>ways compared to organically grown food.That is not the way to get
cheap 
>food and it is not really cheap, this kind of product is based on
highly 
>subsidized farming that uses unconscionable amounts of fossil fuel to 
>create this sort of pseudo-food.
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: woodsjay@cox.net
>To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
>Cc: Robyn Williamson <robinet@aapt.net.au>
>Sent: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 6:06 am
>Subject: [permaculture] Distiller's Dried Grain with Solubles Recipes
>
>
>
>Since cheap food seems to be on a lot of people's minds right now, I
though 
>I'd
>write about my first contact with DDGS. It has always seemed reasonable
to 
>me
>that I would grow the perennials and let the commercial farmers grow
the
>annuals. (That is because I suck at growing things. The trees don't
mind. 
>The
>asparagus almost cares. The rhubarb dies.)
>
>What was available to me was 50 lb sacks of DDGS based on corn. (This
is 
>Omaha
>NE.) It is a light yellow-brown course powder with a slight
winey-yeasty 
>odor.
>It costs $7.00 per sack at the feed store. (Yes, it was expected that
it 
>will be
>fed to animals. There is no labelling for human consumption. However,
dead
>animals due to feed reflect badly on the store as a supplier. I have 
>assumed
>that the same applies to human beings.)
>
>What follows is a few things that didn't work.
>
>I boiled it to try for soup or porridge. It sits in the bottom of the
pot 
>and
>doesn't expand or soften. It has a slightly sour and bitter taste. My
wife 
>hated
>it. I thought it was edible. (I think most everything that doesn't bite

>back is
>edible. Peas are not edible except under special circumstances such as 
>eating at
>a friend's place.)
>
>I added salt and then curry powder. The salt killed the bitter taste.
The 
>curry
>powder stayed as a taste of it's own and didn't modify the flavor of
the 
>DDGS.
>
>I don't recommend it in any large quantity in soups or porridge.
>
>It is a high protein foodstuff and therefore encourages working with
it. It 
>is
>likely (for the corn version only) that much of the protein is
unavailable 
>to
>human being. I'm trying to find out how much of the protein the yeast
has
>reworked (which would be available). By separating the powder from the 
>little
>gritties a reasonable estimate could be made.
>
>It should be possible to make a DDGS loaded wheat bread which is likely
to 
>have
>the weight and consistency of lead hockey pucks.
>
>I am encouraged to try more things. Please feel free to contribute
ideas on 
>the
>subject.
>_______________________________________________
>permaculture mailing list
>permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
>http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________________________________
_
>AOL now offers free email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free

>from AOL at AOL.com.
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 2
>Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 18:00:20 +0000
>From: "Charles de Matas" <cdematas@hotmail.com>
>Subject: [permaculture] articles by Roland Bunch
>To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>Message-ID: <BAY107-F154BAC1447B411A6F3053CC7F80@phx.gbl>
>Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>
>Thanks! to whoever posted the links to Roland Bunch's articles.  
>Fascinating
>ideas.  Here are some  links again for anyone who missed these.
>Charles.
>
>
>
>Bunch's paper in PDF; 19 pages
>http://ppathw3.cals.cornell.edu/mba_project/moist/Roland.pdf
>
>
>http://agroforestry.net/overstory/overstory29.html
>
>http://www.agroforestry.net/overstory/overstory20.html
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar - get it now!
>http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 3
>Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 18:14:11 +0000
>From: "Charles de Matas" <cdematas@hotmail.com>
>Subject: [permaculture] Articles by Roland Bunch
>To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>Message-ID: <BAY19-F13C807E68B14C963299C66C7F80@phx.gbl>
>Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>
>Another one from Roland Bunch:
>
>http://ppathw3.cals.cornell.edu/mba_project/moist/Mmguat.html
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's
FREE!
>http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 4
>Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 17:13:26 -0300
>From: Juergen Botz <jurgen@botz.org>
>Subject: [permaculture] Manioc (casava) guilds?
>To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>Message-ID: <469BD166.6080402@botz.org>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
>Anyone know what's good to co-plant with manioc?
>
>:j
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 5
>Date: 16 Jul 2007 17:07:15 EDT
>From: msnow@valley.net (msnow)
>Subject: [permaculture] Keyline vs spring loaded shanks
>To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>Message-ID: <48887752@retriever.VALLEY.NET>
>
>Darren and all,
>
>I work with a livestock guy who wonders if the following is an
alternative 
>to a keyline plow:
>
>Krause "flex-wing" coulter chisel.  I think it's a combination disc, 
>subsoiler and chisel.  www.krauseco.com/p/4800_p.htm
>
>Spring loaded shankes, curved, "iron guide and heat-treated steel
bushing 
>at the top of the spring holder reduce wear and allow the shank to
flex.  
>Greater point loading is available due to the nine-inch triop height."
>
>spring reset chisel shanks...
>
>"parabolic subsoiler shanks (1-1/4" x 36")... better shattering of the
soil 
>profile is available between the subsoil shanks - up to 16 inches deep.

>Combinations of chisel and subsoiler shanks work to break up deeply 
>compacted layers of soil and maintain the appropriate amount of residue
to 
>comply with conservation plans.
>
>
>That's question 1.
>Question 2.  I have 8-9 inches topsoil and 8 feet of clay below.  Is a 
>keyline plow appropriate for deepening the topsoil layer into something

>more usable than a table top for holding water?
>
>Many thanks,
>
>Mike Snow
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 6
>Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 18:32:55 -0500
>From: "Marjory" <forestgarden@gvtc.com>
>Subject: Re: [permaculture] Peak Oil -
>To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
>Message-ID: <HEECIFPGFCCKACMCONFJGEOCCAAA.forestgarden@gvtc.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain;      charset="us-ascii"
>
>Hi Tommy,
>
>Thank you for your honesty.  You don't have 30 years.  I don't believe
os
>anyway.  I doubt humanity will extract the last drop of oil - the
intensity
>of fighting over dwindling resources will prevent it.
>
>this civilization is over.  That is both the bad and the good news.
>
>Good luck on your qdventrues.  It is dammned hard to get one of those 
>remote
>farms up and functioning, much less a small community, and I sincerely 
>doubt
>eco cities will emerge.  I think one of the major failings of
permaculture
>is the false optimism it engenders.
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Marjory
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
>[mailto:permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org]On Behalf Of Tommy
Tolson
>Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 5:21 PM
>To: permaculture
>Subject: Re: [permaculture] Peak Oil -
>
>
>Marjory wrote:
> > Hi Tommy,
> >
> > I sincerely appreciate that you are getting it about the end of oil,
the
> > various plans of the neocons, and your calls to wake up.  Yes, its
all
> > happening - its real - and humanity is in for some serious changes.
>Anyone
> > who starts to see this should be scared shitless, and it sounds like
you
>are
> > there.  That is good.  That is what it takes to make the necessary
>changes.
> >
> > What are you doing specifically?  I see you are from Austin by your 
>email.
> > That is a fairly large city.  Are you growing your own food there?
Have
>you
> > constructed a water catchment system?  Or perhaps, dug a pond for
fish?
> > What designs have you implemented?  Have you created a community
where
>there
> > is a focus towards sustainability?
> >
> >
>I am in the observation phase of designing Ecocity Austin.
>
>I live in an apartment.
>
>I'm a disabled vet living on disability compensation.
>
>I buy all my food, either from the store or the farmers market - or the
>coop, if I drive up there.
>
>I drive a gasoline-powered car.
>
>One of my teachers at New College was Richard Heinberg, author of /The
>Party's Over/.
>
>Basically, I'm fucked.  I'm into designing my way out of there without
>weenying out and designing a groovy farm in Bumfuck, Egypt to avoid the
>marauding hoards of starving urbanites after 2030.  I don't want to
live
>if human civilization fails.
>
>Thanks for responding.
>
>Smiles.
>Tommy Tolson
>Austin, TX
>_______________________________________________
>permaculture mailing list
>permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
>http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 7
>Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 19:53:35 -0500
>From: Tommy Tolson <healinghawk@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: [permaculture] Peak Oil -
>To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
>Message-ID: <469C130F.705@earthlink.net>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
>Hi, Marjory,
>Most curse me for my honesty, rather than thank me.  Thank you for
>changing that.
>I would be overjoyed to have twenty years to get things turned around.
>The neocons have a US military base in every oil-bearing region of the
>world now.  I think you're probably correct about getting all the oil
>out of Earth.  It won't nearly all come out.
>This civilization was over at the Great Depression, when we overshot
our
>ecosystem's support capacity with one hundred million people.  It just
>had enough money to buy this much time with ghost acreage.  That's a
sad
>thing, really.  We'd be a lot better off if it had gone away then.  As
>it is, we have to deal with its fall.
>I planted a food forest before and it fed us (not completely) after
only
>two years.  I just don't want to live that way while all that's good
>about the US people goes away.  I think we are going to see an ecocity
>in Austin.  We're at work on preparing our Power Point presentation to
>an interested business owner who has a good site for the first ecocity
>center.
>New Agers demand optimism.  I don't buy it, either.  It's going to be a
>hard, hard, hard road.  Most won't survive.  We just have to evolve
>ourselves enough to grieve in real time and go on with the work of
>building a new future with whatever we have at our disposal.  The
>alternative is not acceptable.
>
>Smiles.
>Tommy Tolson
>Austin, TX
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 8
>Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 18:32:24 +1000
>From: Robyn Francis <erda@nor.com.au>
>Subject: Re: [permaculture] Manioc (casava) guilds?
>To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
>Message-ID: <C2C2BBB8.3E7B%erda@nor.com.au>
>Content-Type: text/plain;      charset="ISO-8859-1"
>
>On 17/7/07 6:13 AM, "Juergen Botz" <jurgen@botz.org> wrote:
> > Anyone know what's good to co-plant with manioc?
>
>Cassava guilds need to be built around the planting, growing and
harvesting
>cycles and regimes of cassava. From planting a cassava cutting to first
>harvest-sized roots takes around 8 months and digging up the roots can
>involve serious excavation at times. It has an extended harvest period
and
>is best regarded as living storage since the roots must be eaten or
>processed within 3 days of harvest.
>
>You can do some interesting stacking in space and time with cassava,
>depending on your climate and seasonal factors. Cassava provides a
canopy
>for understorey annuals, especially leafy annuals that appreciate shade
in
>hot weather/climates like lettuce, coriander and mustard greens do
well.
>
>In parts of Asia, companions are often living mulches of peanuts,
ground
>nuts and/or creeping crops like kang kong, Ceylon (Indian running)
spinach,
>warrigal greens (NZ spinach), pumpkin, choko and vine squash. The
cassava
>roots can be harvested as required with minimal damage to the vine
crops.
>
>Best to avoid planting cassava around perennials that don't like their 
>roots
>disturbed if you're growing cassava as a root crop.
>
>ciao
>Robyn
>
>
>--
>Pathways to sustainability through
>Accredited Permaculture Training?
>Certificates III & IV and Diploma of Permaculture
>Erda Institute Inc
>
>Robyn Francis
>
>Djanbung Gardens
>Permaculture Education Centre
>PO Box 379 Nimbin NSW 2480
>02-6689 1755  /  0429 147 138
>www.permaculture.com.au
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 9
>Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 23:41:41 +1000
>From: "timwinton" <timwinton@internode.on.net>
>Subject: [permaculture] Permaforest Trust July 07 Update- Big Changes-
>       Taking It to the Next Level
>To: "Trusties List" <trusties@lists.permaforesttrust.org.au>,  "Trust
>       updates list"
<permaforest-trust-list@lists.permaforesttrust.org.au>
>Message-ID: <025301c7c878$36408fe0$0401a8c0@winton>
>Content-Type: text/plain;      charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>Hi Folks,
>
>Permaforest Trust has been undergoing some big changes lately. They're
all
>about helping make our work more accessible and about taking
Permaforest
>Trust into the next phase of development. We'd like to thank you all
for
>your support so far and to invite you to remain involved as we move 
>forward.
>We're changing the nature of these updates to provide you with
resources 
>for
>'Post Carbon Transition'- tools for community adaptation to peak oil,
>climate change and other limits to growth.  We'd like to invite you to
join
>our website (membership now free) and our 'Trusties' email list for
post
>carbon resources and discussion. See www.permaforesttrust.org.au to
join.
>Summary of changes and links to our website postings listed below.
Please
>email info@permaforesttrust.org.au if you would like to be removed from

>this
>list.
>   a.. Permaforest Trust's Certificate 4 and Diploma in Accredited
>Permaculture Training will be run in Byron Bay starting March 2008. The
>program will train 'Post Carbon Professionals' with a focus on
integrating
>traditional hands on permaculture techniques and design with community
>development and project management skills.
>     a.. Press Release
>http://www.permaforesttrust.org.au/Members/timwinton/permaforest-trust-
post-carbon-education-comes-to-byron-bay
>     b.. Course Details 
>http://www.permaforesttrust.org.au/apt/introduction/
>
>   b.. We are pleased to announce that current Permaforest Trust
manager,
>Jerome Santospirito, will shortly be co-owner of the Permaforest Trust
>sustainability education centre and demonstration farm. Jerome along
with
>partner and long time Permaforest Trust participant, Kaylah Ferguson,
will
>make the Trust property their home. Jerome plans to scale up the
organic
>farming operations, manage Accredited Permaculture Training interns in
the
>fine art of commercial organic growing and continue to develop the
>Permaforest Trust education center (more on planned developments for
the
>centre in future updates). Jerome will also be assisting with training
and
>assessment in the 2008 Byron Bay Accredited Permaculture Training
program.
>
>   c.. Tim's Era of Post Carbon Transition video/powerpoint is now 
>available
>for viewing at
>http://bb.r2b2.net/postcarbonv2/The%20Era%20of%20Post%20Carbon%20Transi
tion.html
>This is a part of our initial foray into creating rich media resources
for
>the web- we are calling it our 'Low Fi is the New Hi Fi' series. We
will
>post related content in future updates.
>
>   d.. Trust member and former Accredited Permaculture Training student

>Tiku
>Peters is now working on a project in India. See
>http://www.permaforesttrust.org.au/Members/kaylahferguson/vrikshayurved
a-the-science-of-plant-life/
>for a report on her encounter with the ancient Indian science of
>Vrikshayurveda.
>That's all for now. All the best from the Permaforest Trust crew,
>
>Tim
>
>--
>Tim Winton
>Permaforest Trust
>Lot 3 Hidden Valley Rd
>Barkers Vale, NSW
>Australia 2474
>phone +61 02 6689 7579
>fax +61 02 9225 9536
>
>www.permaforesttrust.org.au
>
>Offering Certificate 4 and Diploma
>in Accredited Permaculture Training
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 10
>Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 11:08:12 -0400
>From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflj@bellsouth.net>
>Subject: [permaculture] Organic Farming Beats No-Till?
>To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
>Message-ID: <469CDB5C.1030402@bellsouth.net>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
>
>-------- Original Message --------
>Subject: Re: [SANET-MG] Organic Farming Beats No-Till?
>Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 10:16:41 -0400
>From: STEVE GILMAN <stevegilman@VERIZON.NET>
>To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
>
>Hi Janet, and all --
>
>Small wonder that conventional chemical no-till adherants are staking
>a claim for garnering carbon credits. They've been touting no-till as
>THE agribusiness salvation for erosion protection and lesser ag
>energy use through reduced tillage, and as the best way to reduce
>agriculture's hefty contribution to  climate change via the soil
>sequestration of carbon.
>
>What they don't dwell on is the method's complete dependance on agri-
>petroleum inputs -- for the herbicides needed to kill the cover crop
>to plant into and for the increased synthetic fertilizers required to
>grow the cash crop in a killed sod environment along with all the
>insecticides, fungicides and other pesticides required to produce the
>crop. Rather, when counting up the carbon credits, the no-till
>researchers and advocates are only counting what they want to count.
>
>In reality, the enhanced use of chemical fertilizers generates major
>amounts of nitrous oxide -- a virulent greenhouse gas 296 times more
>potent per pound than carbon dioxide. There's also all the
>significant embedded energy costs in manufacturing and transporting
>the synthetic fertilizers and herbicides as well as the machinery/
>fuel to apply them. As for erosion control, well maybe, but only in
>terms of non-sustainable, ecologically ruinous trade-offs. Around
>here, (hilly upstate NY) chemical no-till was initially developed to
>enable farmers to plant corn on highly erodable sloping areas -- land
>better off in pasture, hay or trees. Going no-till also required
>considerable investment in special heavy duty planters designed to
>plant into sod -- and larger tractor HP to pull it.
>
>And overall, no-till has found limited value in northern zone areas
>because the killed cover keeps soils cooler longer into the planting
>season, delaying the soil microbial biological nutrient exchange
>activity necessary for plant growth, restricting it's usage to
>central and southern areas.
>
>And as the "organic farming beats no-till" research <www.ars.usda.gov/
>is/pr/2007/070710.htm> demonstrates, even standard organic builds
>more organic matter and sequesters more carbon, than chemical no-till
>-- without co-generating the nitrous oxide, pollutant and pesticide
>"side effects."  In addition, there's exciting research at Rodale and
>elsewhere on Organic no-till which relies on roller/crimpers, etc. to
>mechanically kill the cover crop, while using biologically-based
>fertility enhancements such as compost, legume rotations, amendments,
>etc. to bring in the main crop, while building organic matter and
>sequestering carbon in soil organic matter as well as in  the more
>stable and lasting humus, chitin and fungal glomalin.
>
>Energy-wise, Organic is essentially a solar agriculture, using 30%
>less energy inputs to begin with. Conventional ag is a major
>petrochemical industry, however, completely dependent on a rapidly
>diminishing oil supply and escalating petro-input costs --
>unsustainable into even the near future.
>
>In short, ALL the numbers for organic carbon credits really DO add
>up, even if Organic's OTHER beneficent environmental and health side
>effects (clean air and water, no pesticide poisoning, food security,
>etc.) aren't part of the equation.
>
>Rigorous studies comparing organic and chemical methods are
>critically important if we're to have a valid scientific basis for
>issuing saleable carbon credits to farmers.  I'm not sure who makes
>the decisions awarding carbon credits at the Chicago Exchange, but I
>haven't heard anything to indicate that organic is even on their
>radar screen. We should all be jumping up and down to get Organic at
>the top of the list. As more and more organic agriculture comes on
>line and the price premium drops in the marketplace (already
>happening in dairy) the extra income from carbon credits are a major
>(non-subsidy) incentive for the transformation of (world) agriculture
>to the organic method -- especially when ALL the costs are counted
>and conventional farmers end up having to BUY carbon credits to
>continue their conventional practices, no-till included...
>
>Steve Gilman
>Ruckytucks Farm
>
>On Jul 17, 2007, at 12:00 AM, SANET-MG automatic digest system wrote:
>
> > Date:    Mon, 16 Jul 2007 10:37:19 -0700
> > From:    "Babin, Janet" <jbabin@MARKETPLACE.ORG>
> > Subject: Re: Organic Farming Beats No-Till?
> >
> > Hi All:
> >
> > I'm working on a story about the Chicago Climate Exchange's new
> > deadline
> > for farmer participation this year.  The Exchange, as many of you
> > know,
> > pays farmers for 'carbon-credits' that they get for no-till farming
on
> > their land.  They they trade them on the exchange.
> >
> > I wonder, are any organic farmers planning to take part in the
Climate
> > Exchange this year?  (the deadline is in mid-August).  Because
no-till
> > is one of the ways to get money, it would seem to me difficult for
> > organic farmers to participate (somewhat ironic). =20
> >
> > But then I came across John here...and thought I'd better ask.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Janet
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
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>permaculture mailing list
>permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>
>
>End of permaculture Digest, Vol 54, Issue 18
>********************************************

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