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Re: [permaculture] Manioc (casava) guilds?

From: "Jamie R" <smartplantguy@hotmail.com>
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Manioc (casava) guilds?
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 20:08:44 +0000

Hi Juergen, while I was living and volunteering in Kalimantan, Indonesia, I helped with building some organic farms. Kasava greens were a major staple of our diet in that area. After doing some interviews with the local Dayaks (the first nations people of the area) I learnt that they interplant them with pineapple. They combine these two because the Kasava root and pineapple fruit mature at roughly the same time, they both like the same kind of soil, and the pineapple doesn't mind being unearthed when the kasava root is harvested, because they usually divide the plants after they flower and bare fruit anyway.

I attempted planting these two together myself and they grow really well together. When I return to Kalimantan, things I'd like to try with this duo are a bean that could climb the kasava stalks and add nitrogen to the soil and a ground cover to act as a live mulch, most likely a tropical Lotus species, again, to help add Nitrogen and so on.

Hopefully that will give you some helpful ideas, cheers.

James Reinert
East Vancouver, BC, Canada

From: permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org
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To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: permaculture Digest, Vol 54, Issue 18
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 12:00:28 -0400

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Today's Topics:

1. Re: Distiller's Dried Grain with Solubles Recipes
(lbsaltzman@aol.com)
2. articles by Roland Bunch (Charles de Matas)
3. Articles by Roland Bunch (Charles de Matas)
4. Manioc (casava) guilds? (Juergen Botz)
5. Keyline vs spring loaded shanks (msnow)
6. Re: Peak Oil - (Marjory)
7. Re: Peak Oil - (Tommy Tolson)
8. Re: Manioc (casava) guilds? (Robyn Francis)
9. Permaforest Trust July 07 Update- Big Changes- Taking It to
the Next Level (timwinton)
10. Organic Farming Beats No-Till? (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)

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Message: 1
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 12:50:28 -0400
From: lbsaltzman@aol.com
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Distiller's Dried Grain with Solubles
Recipes
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <8C995E08C42A0EB-1188-27C9@webmail-db07.sysops.aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

This sounds alike a product that I wouldn't eat under any circumstances. It is probably full of pesticides and could well be made from genetically engineered corn. I am sure that it is also nutritionally deficient in many ways compared to organically grown food.That is not the way to get cheap food and it is not really cheap, this kind of product is based on highly subsidized farming that uses unconscionable amounts of fossil fuel to create this sort of pseudo-food.

-----Original Message-----
From: woodsjay@cox.net
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Cc: Robyn Williamson <robinet@aapt.net.au>
Sent: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 6:06 am
Subject: [permaculture] Distiller's Dried Grain with Solubles Recipes

Since cheap food seems to be on a lot of people's minds right now, I though I'd
write about my first contact with DDGS. It has always seemed reasonable to me
that I would grow the perennials and let the commercial farmers grow the
annuals. (That is because I suck at growing things. The trees don't mind. The
asparagus almost cares. The rhubarb dies.)

What was available to me was 50 lb sacks of DDGS based on corn. (This is Omaha
NE.) It is a light yellow-brown course powder with a slight winey-yeasty odor.
It costs $7.00 per sack at the feed store. (Yes, it was expected that it will be
fed to animals. There is no labelling for human consumption. However, dead
animals due to feed reflect badly on the store as a supplier. I have assumed
that the same applies to human beings.)

What follows is a few things that didn't work.

I boiled it to try for soup or porridge. It sits in the bottom of the pot and
doesn't expand or soften. It has a slightly sour and bitter taste. My wife hated
it. I thought it was edible. (I think most everything that doesn't bite back is
edible. Peas are not edible except under special circumstances such as eating at
a friend's place.)

I added salt and then curry powder. The salt killed the bitter taste. The curry
powder stayed as a taste of it's own and didn't modify the flavor of the DDGS.

I don't recommend it in any large quantity in soups or porridge.

It is a high protein foodstuff and therefore encourages working with it. It is
likely (for the corn version only) that much of the protein is unavailable to
human being. I'm trying to find out how much of the protein the yeast has
reworked (which would be available). By separating the powder from the little
gritties a reasonable estimate could be made.

It should be possible to make a DDGS loaded wheat bread which is likely to have
the weight and consistency of lead hockey pucks.

I am encouraged to try more things. Please feel free to contribute ideas on the
subject.
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Message: 2
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 18:00:20 +0000
From: "Charles de Matas" <cdematas@hotmail.com>
Subject: [permaculture] articles by Roland Bunch
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <BAY107-F154BAC1447B411A6F3053CC7F80@phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Thanks! to whoever posted the links to Roland Bunch's articles. Fascinating
ideas. Here are some links again for anyone who missed these.
Charles.

Bunch's paper in PDF; 19 pages
http://ppathw3.cals.cornell.edu/mba_project/moist/Roland.pdf

http://agroforestry.net/overstory/overstory29.html

http://www.agroforestry.net/overstory/overstory20.html

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Message: 3
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 18:14:11 +0000
From: "Charles de Matas" <cdematas@hotmail.com>
Subject: [permaculture] Articles by Roland Bunch
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <BAY19-F13C807E68B14C963299C66C7F80@phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Another one from Roland Bunch:

http://ppathw3.cals.cornell.edu/mba_project/moist/Mmguat.html

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Message: 4
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 17:13:26 -0300
From: Juergen Botz <jurgen@botz.org>
Subject: [permaculture] Manioc (casava) guilds?
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <469BD166.6080402@botz.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Anyone know what's good to co-plant with manioc?

:j

------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: 16 Jul 2007 17:07:15 EDT
From: msnow@valley.net (msnow)
Subject: [permaculture] Keyline vs spring loaded shanks
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <48887752@retriever.VALLEY.NET>

Darren and all,

I work with a livestock guy who wonders if the following is an alternative to a keyline plow:

Krause "flex-wing" coulter chisel. I think it's a combination disc, subsoiler and chisel. www.krauseco.com/p/4800_p.htm

Spring loaded shankes, curved, "iron guide and heat-treated steel bushing at the top of the spring holder reduce wear and allow the shank to flex. Greater point loading is available due to the nine-inch triop height."

spring reset chisel shanks...

"parabolic subsoiler shanks (1-1/4" x 36")... better shattering of the soil profile is available between the subsoil shanks - up to 16 inches deep. Combinations of chisel and subsoiler shanks work to break up deeply compacted layers of soil and maintain the appropriate amount of residue to comply with conservation plans.

That's question 1.
Question 2. I have 8-9 inches topsoil and 8 feet of clay below. Is a keyline plow appropriate for deepening the topsoil layer into something more usable than a table top for holding water?

Many thanks,

Mike Snow

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 18:32:55 -0500
From: "Marjory" <forestgarden@gvtc.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Peak Oil -
To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <HEECIFPGFCCKACMCONFJGEOCCAAA.forestgarden@gvtc.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hi Tommy,

Thank you for your honesty. You don't have 30 years. I don't believe os
anyway. I doubt humanity will extract the last drop of oil - the intensity
of fighting over dwindling resources will prevent it.

this civilization is over. That is both the bad and the good news.

Good luck on your qdventrues. It is dammned hard to get one of those remote
farms up and functioning, much less a small community, and I sincerely doubt
eco cities will emerge. I think one of the major failings of permaculture
is the false optimism it engenders.

Sincerely,

Marjory

-----Original Message-----
From: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org]On Behalf Of Tommy Tolson
Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 5:21 PM
To: permaculture
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Peak Oil -

Marjory wrote:
> Hi Tommy,
>
> I sincerely appreciate that you are getting it about the end of oil, the
> various plans of the neocons, and your calls to wake up. Yes, its all
> happening - its real - and humanity is in for some serious changes.
Anyone
> who starts to see this should be scared shitless, and it sounds like you
are
> there. That is good. That is what it takes to make the necessary
changes.
>
> What are you doing specifically? I see you are from Austin by your email.
> That is a fairly large city. Are you growing your own food there? Have
you
> constructed a water catchment system? Or perhaps, dug a pond for fish?
> What designs have you implemented? Have you created a community where
there
> is a focus towards sustainability?
>
>
I am in the observation phase of designing Ecocity Austin.

I live in an apartment.

I'm a disabled vet living on disability compensation.

I buy all my food, either from the store or the farmers market - or the
coop, if I drive up there.

I drive a gasoline-powered car.

One of my teachers at New College was Richard Heinberg, author of /The
Party's Over/.

Basically, I'm fucked. I'm into designing my way out of there without
weenying out and designing a groovy farm in Bumfuck, Egypt to avoid the
marauding hoards of starving urbanites after 2030. I don't want to live
if human civilization fails.

Thanks for responding.

Smiles.
Tommy Tolson
Austin, TX
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Message: 7
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 19:53:35 -0500
From: Tommy Tolson <healinghawk@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Peak Oil -
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <469C130F.705@earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Hi, Marjory,
Most curse me for my honesty, rather than thank me. Thank you for
changing that.
I would be overjoyed to have twenty years to get things turned around.
The neocons have a US military base in every oil-bearing region of the
world now. I think you're probably correct about getting all the oil
out of Earth. It won't nearly all come out.
This civilization was over at the Great Depression, when we overshot our
ecosystem's support capacity with one hundred million people. It just
had enough money to buy this much time with ghost acreage. That's a sad
thing, really. We'd be a lot better off if it had gone away then. As
it is, we have to deal with its fall.
I planted a food forest before and it fed us (not completely) after only
two years. I just don't want to live that way while all that's good
about the US people goes away. I think we are going to see an ecocity
in Austin. We're at work on preparing our Power Point presentation to
an interested business owner who has a good site for the first ecocity
center.
New Agers demand optimism. I don't buy it, either. It's going to be a
hard, hard, hard road. Most won't survive. We just have to evolve
ourselves enough to grieve in real time and go on with the work of
building a new future with whatever we have at our disposal. The
alternative is not acceptable.

Smiles.
Tommy Tolson
Austin, TX

------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 18:32:24 +1000
From: Robyn Francis <erda@nor.com.au>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Manioc (casava) guilds?
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <C2C2BBB8.3E7B%erda@nor.com.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"

On 17/7/07 6:13 AM, "Juergen Botz" <jurgen@botz.org> wrote:
> Anyone know what's good to co-plant with manioc?

Cassava guilds need to be built around the planting, growing and harvesting
cycles and regimes of cassava. From planting a cassava cutting to first
harvest-sized roots takes around 8 months and digging up the roots can
involve serious excavation at times. It has an extended harvest period and
is best regarded as living storage since the roots must be eaten or
processed within 3 days of harvest.

You can do some interesting stacking in space and time with cassava,
depending on your climate and seasonal factors. Cassava provides a canopy
for understorey annuals, especially leafy annuals that appreciate shade in
hot weather/climates like lettuce, coriander and mustard greens do well.

In parts of Asia, companions are often living mulches of peanuts, ground
nuts and/or creeping crops like kang kong, Ceylon (Indian running) spinach,
warrigal greens (NZ spinach), pumpkin, choko and vine squash. The cassava
roots can be harvested as required with minimal damage to the vine crops.

Best to avoid planting cassava around perennials that don't like their roots
disturbed if you're growing cassava as a root crop.

ciao
Robyn

--
Pathways to sustainability through
Accredited Permaculture Training?
Certificates III & IV and Diploma of Permaculture
Erda Institute Inc

Robyn Francis

Djanbung Gardens
Permaculture Education Centre
PO Box 379 Nimbin NSW 2480
02-6689 1755 / 0429 147 138
www.permaculture.com.au

------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 23:41:41 +1000
From: "timwinton" <timwinton@internode.on.net>
Subject: [permaculture] Permaforest Trust July 07 Update- Big Changes-
Taking It to the Next Level
To: "Trusties List" <trusties@lists.permaforesttrust.org.au>, "Trust
updates list" <permaforest-trust-list@lists.permaforesttrust.org.au>
Message-ID: <025301c7c878$36408fe0$0401a8c0@winton>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Hi Folks,

Permaforest Trust has been undergoing some big changes lately. They're all
about helping make our work more accessible and about taking Permaforest
Trust into the next phase of development. We'd like to thank you all for
your support so far and to invite you to remain involved as we move forward.
We're changing the nature of these updates to provide you with resources for
'Post Carbon Transition'- tools for community adaptation to peak oil,
climate change and other limits to growth. We'd like to invite you to join
our website (membership now free) and our 'Trusties' email list for post
carbon resources and discussion. See www.permaforesttrust.org.au to join.
Summary of changes and links to our website postings listed below. Please
email info@permaforesttrust.org.au if you would like to be removed from this
list.
a.. Permaforest Trust's Certificate 4 and Diploma in Accredited
Permaculture Training will be run in Byron Bay starting March 2008. The
program will train 'Post Carbon Professionals' with a focus on integrating
traditional hands on permaculture techniques and design with community
development and project management skills.
a.. Press Release
http://www.permaforesttrust.org.au/Members/timwinton/permaforest-trust-post-carbon-education-comes-to-byron-bay
b.. Course Details http://www.permaforesttrust.org.au/apt/introduction/

b.. We are pleased to announce that current Permaforest Trust manager,
Jerome Santospirito, will shortly be co-owner of the Permaforest Trust
sustainability education centre and demonstration farm. Jerome along with
partner and long time Permaforest Trust participant, Kaylah Ferguson, will
make the Trust property their home. Jerome plans to scale up the organic
farming operations, manage Accredited Permaculture Training interns in the
fine art of commercial organic growing and continue to develop the
Permaforest Trust education center (more on planned developments for the
centre in future updates). Jerome will also be assisting with training and
assessment in the 2008 Byron Bay Accredited Permaculture Training program.

c.. Tim's Era of Post Carbon Transition video/powerpoint is now available
for viewing at
http://bb.r2b2.net/postcarbonv2/The%20Era%20of%20Post%20Carbon%20Transition.html
This is a part of our initial foray into creating rich media resources for
the web- we are calling it our 'Low Fi is the New Hi Fi' series. We will
post related content in future updates.

d.. Trust member and former Accredited Permaculture Training student Tiku
Peters is now working on a project in India. See
http://www.permaforesttrust.org.au/Members/kaylahferguson/vrikshayurveda-the-science-of-plant-life/
for a report on her encounter with the ancient Indian science of
Vrikshayurveda.
That's all for now. All the best from the Permaforest Trust crew,

Tim

--
Tim Winton
Permaforest Trust
Lot 3 Hidden Valley Rd
Barkers Vale, NSW
Australia 2474
phone +61 02 6689 7579
fax +61 02 9225 9536

www.permaforesttrust.org.au

Offering Certificate 4 and Diploma
in Accredited Permaculture Training

------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 11:08:12 -0400
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflj@bellsouth.net>
Subject: [permaculture] Organic Farming Beats No-Till?
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <469CDB5C.1030402@bellsouth.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [SANET-MG] Organic Farming Beats No-Till?
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 10:16:41 -0400
From: STEVE GILMAN <stevegilman@VERIZON.NET>
To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU

Hi Janet, and all --

Small wonder that conventional chemical no-till adherants are staking
a claim for garnering carbon credits. They've been touting no-till as
THE agribusiness salvation for erosion protection and lesser ag
energy use through reduced tillage, and as the best way to reduce
agriculture's hefty contribution to climate change via the soil
sequestration of carbon.

What they don't dwell on is the method's complete dependance on agri-
petroleum inputs -- for the herbicides needed to kill the cover crop
to plant into and for the increased synthetic fertilizers required to
grow the cash crop in a killed sod environment along with all the
insecticides, fungicides and other pesticides required to produce the
crop. Rather, when counting up the carbon credits, the no-till
researchers and advocates are only counting what they want to count.

In reality, the enhanced use of chemical fertilizers generates major
amounts of nitrous oxide -- a virulent greenhouse gas 296 times more
potent per pound than carbon dioxide. There's also all the
significant embedded energy costs in manufacturing and transporting
the synthetic fertilizers and herbicides as well as the machinery/
fuel to apply them. As for erosion control, well maybe, but only in
terms of non-sustainable, ecologically ruinous trade-offs. Around
here, (hilly upstate NY) chemical no-till was initially developed to
enable farmers to plant corn on highly erodable sloping areas -- land
better off in pasture, hay or trees. Going no-till also required
considerable investment in special heavy duty planters designed to
plant into sod -- and larger tractor HP to pull it.

And overall, no-till has found limited value in northern zone areas
because the killed cover keeps soils cooler longer into the planting
season, delaying the soil microbial biological nutrient exchange
activity necessary for plant growth, restricting it's usage to
central and southern areas.

And as the "organic farming beats no-till" research <www.ars.usda.gov/
is/pr/2007/070710.htm> demonstrates, even standard organic builds
more organic matter and sequesters more carbon, than chemical no-till
-- without co-generating the nitrous oxide, pollutant and pesticide
"side effects." In addition, there's exciting research at Rodale and
elsewhere on Organic no-till which relies on roller/crimpers, etc. to
mechanically kill the cover crop, while using biologically-based
fertility enhancements such as compost, legume rotations, amendments,
etc. to bring in the main crop, while building organic matter and
sequestering carbon in soil organic matter as well as in the more
stable and lasting humus, chitin and fungal glomalin.

Energy-wise, Organic is essentially a solar agriculture, using 30%
less energy inputs to begin with. Conventional ag is a major
petrochemical industry, however, completely dependent on a rapidly
diminishing oil supply and escalating petro-input costs --
unsustainable into even the near future.

In short, ALL the numbers for organic carbon credits really DO add
up, even if Organic's OTHER beneficent environmental and health side
effects (clean air and water, no pesticide poisoning, food security,
etc.) aren't part of the equation.

Rigorous studies comparing organic and chemical methods are
critically important if we're to have a valid scientific basis for
issuing saleable carbon credits to farmers. I'm not sure who makes
the decisions awarding carbon credits at the Chicago Exchange, but I
haven't heard anything to indicate that organic is even on their
radar screen. We should all be jumping up and down to get Organic at
the top of the list. As more and more organic agriculture comes on
line and the price premium drops in the marketplace (already
happening in dairy) the extra income from carbon credits are a major
(non-subsidy) incentive for the transformation of (world) agriculture
to the organic method -- especially when ALL the costs are counted
and conventional farmers end up having to BUY carbon credits to
continue their conventional practices, no-till included...

Steve Gilman
Ruckytucks Farm

On Jul 17, 2007, at 12:00 AM, SANET-MG automatic digest system wrote:

> Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 10:37:19 -0700
> From: "Babin, Janet" <jbabin@MARKETPLACE.ORG>
> Subject: Re: Organic Farming Beats No-Till?
>
> Hi All:
>
> I'm working on a story about the Chicago Climate Exchange's new
> deadline
> for farmer participation this year. The Exchange, as many of you
> know,
> pays farmers for 'carbon-credits' that they get for no-till farming on
> their land. They they trade them on the exchange.
>
> I wonder, are any organic farmers planning to take part in the Climate
> Exchange this year? (the deadline is in mid-August). Because no-till
> is one of the ways to get money, it would seem to me difficult for
> organic farmers to participate (somewhat ironic). =20
>
> But then I came across John here...and thought I'd better ask.
>
> Thanks,
> Janet

------------------------------

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End of permaculture Digest, Vol 54, Issue 18
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[permaculture] Manioc (casava) guilds?, Juergen Botz, 07/16/2007
- Re: [permaculture] Manioc (casava) guilds?, Robyn Francis, 07/17/2007
- <Possible follow-up(s)>
- Re: [permaculture] Manioc (casava) guilds?, Jamie R, 07/17/2007