Skip to Content.
Sympa Menu

permaculture - Re: [permaculture] permaculture Digest, Vol 53, Issue 47

permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: permaculture

List archive

Chronological Thread  
  • From: "Maureen Sutton" <suttonmaureen@hotmail.com>
  • To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] permaculture Digest, Vol 53, Issue 47
  • Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 07:42:30 -0400

I've been off-list for several months, just storing these e's from Pc. How sad to come back in and find off-topic rants. Please, there is no time for such stuff. It's the permaculture info I need, not more of what I can unfortunately find in many other places.
Honey bees, sustainability, peak oil, pest management, land reclamation, etc. please give us all the help you can, thanks!

http://sifting-the-sandhills.blogspot.com/

Is your produce better-travelled than you are?

Do the thing that you believe in. Do the best you can in the place where you are, and be kind.

- Maureen D Sutton
Farm Up the Street with The Soiled Sisters: Our Reputation Is Dirt



From: permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org
Reply-To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: permaculture Digest, Vol 53, Issue 47
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 23:08:34 -0400

Send permaculture mailing list submissions to
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
permaculture-owner@lists.ibiblio.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of permaculture digest..."


Today's Topics:

1. The spirit of Martin Naylor is with us still... (rafter t. sass)
2. Re: BodyPolictic-Political Humor-Congress Votes to Outsource
Presidency! (Kenneth Benway)
3. Re: BodyPolictic-Political Humor-Congress Votes to Outsource
Presidency! (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
4. Re: Seedballs (Lunaflora21@aol.com)
5. Re: Design-Bioregional-Energy Policy-The Sustainability of
Bio... (Marimike6@cs.com)
6. Ethanol fuel, gas prices, food prices, deforestation
(Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
7. Re: Ethanol fuel, gas prices, food prices, deforestation
(Robert Waldrop)
8. (no subject) (eclecticdr@aol.com)
9. Re: Design-Bioregional-Energy Policy-The Sustainability of
Bio... (Robyn Francis)
10. Re: Ethanol fuel, gas prices, food prices, deforestation
(Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
11. Re: (no subject) (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
12. Re: Ethanol fuel, gas prices, food prices, deforestation
(Robert Waldrop)
13. Re: BodyPolictic-Political Humor-Congress Votes to Outsource
Presidency! (Graham)
14. Re: Keith Johnson for President! (Graham)
15. Shit (Tommy Tolson)
16. Re: Crabgrass, Bermuda grass, etc. (Paul Cereghino)
17. Re: Ethanol fuel, gas prices, food prices, deforestation
(Tommy Tolson)
18. Re: Crabgrass, Bermuda grass, etc. (Golden Love)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 09:01:01 -0700
From: "rafter t. sass" <geophaestus@hotmail.com>
Subject: [permaculture] The spirit of Martin Naylor is with us
still...
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <BAY125-F2602377407F9E291CC21D6BF1C0@phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed


How about all creepy venting/ranting, particularly violent and rape
fantasies, are kept off-list?

>Hell, the little punk
>should have hit the 12 year Water Oak. That would have stopped him dead.
>Might even have killed him but I doubt it. I'm mad but I didn't want him
>to die. Maybe I'd take his girlfriend.Too bad I didn't have a brick wall
>around my perimeter. Put him with inmates out on the highway shoulder.

No question that the event sucked, and gave folks reason to be angry. No
reason to not be angry as hell at the young person who was driving the car.
I understand that folks sometimes just need to vent their extreme emotions.
Public fora are not the place to do it, however. Particularly when our
revenge fantasies play into the violent culture of incarceration and
punishment, and goold ol' fashioned Cro-Magnon misogyny as well. Or is there
some nuance behind "Maybe I'd take his girlfriend," that I'm missing?

So: Be angry. Find willing ears to listen to you vent. Don't vent those
emotions into a global discussion forum unless you are being very thoughtful
about what you are saying and how you are saying it.

Thanks.

_________________________________________________________________
Picture this – share your photos and you could win big!
http://www.GETREALPhotoContest.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 13:21:31 -0400
From: "Kenneth Benway" <ken@arcadiandesign.org>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] BodyPolictic-Political Humor-Congress
Votes to Outsource Presidency!
To: "'permaculture'" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <000801c7b103$f2e59960$660aa8d2@arcadian.local>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1250

LL,
Well I've got to be honest with you Lawrence; I'm going to need a little
time to respond to most of these comments.
My number one priority is to create a Permaculture design for the
Florida Bioregion as I thought I had made clear when I created that
topic. Once in a while I like to blow off a little humorous steam. I
find it sad that you took offense.

I have a host of other projects as well, many of which involves my
participation on this list. One of the projects I use this list for
relates directly to the bioregional design project for Florida, as I'm
sure you can recognize from the names of some of the topics that I've
initiated.

I will respond to one aspect of your comments now, however.

YES! Please pass the hat! Send contributions to:

Arcadian Design
4315 10 St North
St Petersburg, Fl 33703
Attn: Ken's Therapy Fund

Please make contributions of a minimum of $100 cash, in Euros or,
preferably gold or silver(fine, not sterling right?). Ken really needs
your help.

Regards,
The nut job Ken





-----Original Message-----
From: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Lawrence F.
London, Jr.
Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2007 6:26 AM
To: permaculture
Subject: Re: [permaculture] BodyPolictic-Political Humor-Congress Votes
to Outsource Presidency!

Kenneth Benway wrote:

> I just couldn't let this one get by without sharing it with the group.
I
> think that we can always us a good laugh, I know I can.
> Ken
>
> Congress Votes to Outsource Presidency

This crosses the line, it has absolutely nothing to do with
permaculture.
Do we need to pass the hat and pay for therapy for you Ken?

Read my keystrokes, no more political posts. These ladies say it too:
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/images/bush3.jpg

We've been losing a subscriber every few days, unusual for this forum.
Back to PC. Be Permaculturally Correct.


_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
-go to the above link to subscribe to or unsubscribe from this list-

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.15/848 - Release Date:
6/13/2007 12:50 PM


No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.17/850 - Release Date:
6/15/2007 11:31 AM




------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 13:46:45 -0400
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@intrex.net>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] BodyPolictic-Political Humor-Congress
Votes to Outsource Presidency!
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <46757385.3080001@intrex.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed

Kenneth Benway wrote:
> LL,
> Well I've got to be honest with you Lawrence; I'm going to need a little
> time to respond to most of these comments.
> I find it sad that you took offense.

OT = Off Topic

And this:

> Hell, the little punk
> should have hit the 12 year Water Oak. That would have stopped him dead.
> Might even have killed him but I doubt it. I'm mad but I didn't want him
> to die. Maybe I'd take his girlfriend. Too bad I didn't have a brick wall
> around my perimeter. Put him with inmates out on the highway shoulder.

Can't believe you'd post this drivel. I thiught we were done with stuff when Martin and Tradingpost
exited the forum. And these are the people ssupporting Ron Paul? Doesn't say much for him as a candidate.

> I have a host of other projects as well, many of which involves my
> participation on this list. One of the projects I use this list for
> relates directly to the bioregional design project for Florida, as I'm
> sure you can recognize from the names of some of the topics that I've
> initiated.

I'd suggest you stick to these topics.

> The nut job Ken

Take the 12 step rightwingnut kneejerk program and keep yourself subscribed to this forum.

--
Lawrence F. London, Jr.
Venaura Farm
lfl@intrex.net
http://market-farming.com
http://market-farming.com/venaurafarm
http://venaurafarm.blogspot.com/
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech



------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 13:51:46 EDT
From: Lunaflora21@aol.com
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Seedballs
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <d32.f2a7dfa.33a6ceb2@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Hi there. Seedballs, in my experience work better when used on a large
expanse of area, otherwise they seem to not be worth it, as broadcasting straight
seed seems to have a higher germination and overall success rate for smaller
areas (plus, straight seed broadcasting is less input in all aspects). Size
of seedball could also determine success rate, and may be something you want
to experiment with. With larger seedballs we had somewhat successful
germination rates of a few native species (which made for increased biodiversity
within the seedballs' area, while smaller seedballs had somewhat higher
germination rates, and made for more evenly dispersed biodiversity throughout the
whole area that we seedballed. We were also doing seedbombing as guerilla
restoration of vacant lots in our town, so the smaller seedballs made for less
attention drawn to our activities, but you're probably not concerned with the
attention aspect. Also, the type of clay used may effect the germination
rates. I would recommend not using the gray potter's clay, but instead using red
powdered clay (more nutrients and easier to mix), then mixing in dry compost
and your seeds at the same time, and then wetting the mixture and balling it
up. Well, hope this helps...let us know how your project turns out!! Would
love to hear about your success rates! Good luck to you.
Katie



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.


------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 14:03:11 EDT
From: Marimike6@cs.com
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Design-Bioregional-Energy Policy-The
Sustainability of Bio...
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <c24.1a39b51c.33a6d15f@cs.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

I'd still like to echo the original comment, which was that someone should do
the math to see how viable next-generation solar would be for providing power
to the state of Florida.

Here are the 2004 figures for energy consumption in that state.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/states/sep_sum/html/sum_btu_tot.html

I see they used 755.2 trillion btus of natural gas-- nearly all, I would
suspect, in electrical generation-- plus 325.5 trillion btus from nuclear power,
699.1 trillion btus from coal, 176.1 trillion btus from biomass and a
negligible amount (2.7 trillion btus) from hydroelectric power. Or, very roughly,
1,200,000,000,000 btus total for the year.

That's a lot of juice. Just so we can wrap our heads around the concept,
could someone with a grasp of the new solar technology size a system for us that
could, say, provide just a trillion btus per year? I'd like to see what we're
talking about.

Michael


------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 14:06:08 -0400
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@intrex.net>
Subject: [permaculture] Ethanol fuel, gas prices, food prices,
deforestation
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <46757810.7090402@intrex.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed


Interesting piece of news. Now gas prices will stay high, food prices will go up, deforestation will increase
and gmo pollen & pest control chemical pollution from the growing of gmo crops will increase. How exactly is ethanol
fuel used? Many vehicles with rubber o-rings, seals and gaskets would probably be at risk from high alcohol-content road
fuel. How do they deal with that? - LL
|
|
Gasoline refinery expansions scaled back

By H. JOSEF HEBERT, Associated Press Writer 1 hour, 7 minutes ago

WASHINGTON - With Congress and the White House pushing to increases the use of ethanol, the oil industry is scaling back
its plans to expand refineries ? which could keep gasoline prices high, possibly for years to come.
ADVERTISEMENT

President Bush has called for a 20 percent decline in gasoline use by 2017 and the Senate is debating legislation for
huge increases in the use of ethanol as a motor fuel. So, oil companies see a growing uncertainty about future gasoline
demand and less need to increase refinery capacity to make more gasoline.

A shortage of refineries frequently has been blamed by politicians for the sharp price spikes in gasoline.

This spring, refiners, hampered by outages, could not keep up with demand and imports were down because of greater fuel
demand in Europe and elsewhere. Despite stable ? even sometimes declining ? oil prices, gasoline prices soared to record
levels and remain well above $3 a gallon.

Consumer advocates maintain the oil industry likes it that way.

"By creating a situation of extremely tight supply, the oil companies gain control over price at the wholesale level,"
says Mark Cooper of the Consumer Federation of America. He argues the refining industry "has no interest in creating
spare (refining) capacity."

Only last year, the Energy Department was told that refiners, reaping big profits and anticipating growing demand, were
looking at boosting their refining capacity by 1.6 million barrels a day, a roughly 10 percent increase.

But oil companies already have scaled those expansion plans back by nearly 40 percent. More cancelations are expected if
Congress passes legislation now before the Sensate calling for 15 billion gallons of ethanol use by 2015 and more than
double that by 2022, say industry and government officials.

"These (expansion) decisions are being revisited in boardrooms across the refining sector," says Charlie Drevna,
executive vice president of the National Petrochemical and Refiners Association.|
|
And more waste:
|
|
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/contractors_iraq;_ylt=Aoa0t.MMmN7gRqM3LC5TfbVhr7sF
Problems continue with defense contracts

By ANDREW TAYLOR, Associated Press Writer Sat Jun 16, 3:00 PM ET

WASHINGTON - A pair of U.S. senators investigating reports of waste, fraud and mismanagement in defense contracts in
Iraq reported from Baghdad Saturday that they see some improvement but the military has a long way to go.

Sens. Claire McCaskill (news, bio, voting record), D-Mo., and Tom Carper, D-Del., were in Iraq meeting with
Pentagon officials to discuss reports of waste, fraud and mismanagement in defense contracts.

Uncountable billions of dollars have been squandered, McCaskill said, but there has been improvement in centralizing
contracting oversight and increasing the number of fixed-price contracts containing incentives not to pad costs.

That's a departure from the early days of the war when reconstruction money and other aid to Iraq was shoveled into the
country with little oversight.



------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 15:11:12 -0500
From: "Robert Waldrop" <bwaldrop@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Ethanol fuel, gas prices, food prices,
deforestation
To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <005401c7b11b$a7259580$6400a8c0@bobcomputer>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252";
reply-type=original

A lot of folks are trying to make much hay out of
the supposed refinery shortage. But the real
problem is peak oil. Why should an international
oil corporation invest big bucks to expand its
refining capacity when soon there won't be enough
crude oil? The refinery shortage is going to
resolve itself in the near term by being exposed
as a "crude oil shortage". World oil production
peaked in May 2005, and it has been all downhill
since then. not a very steep decline, but a
decline nevertheless. It remains to be seen if
May 2005 was "it", or a bump on a plateau, but in
this case it is best to not bet against Mother
Nature nor the Laws of Thermodynamics.

Bob Waldrop, OKC



----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@intrex.net>
To: "permaculture"
<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2007 1:06 PM
Subject: [permaculture] Ethanol fuel, gas prices,
food prices, deforestation



Interesting piece of news. Now gas prices will
stay high, food prices will go up, deforestation
will increase
and gmo pollen & pest control chemical pollution
from the growing of gmo crops will increase. How
exactly is ethanol
fuel used? Many vehicles with rubber o-rings,
seals and gaskets would probably be at risk from
high alcohol-content road
fuel. How do they deal with that? - LL
|
|
Gasoline refinery expansions scaled back

Consumer advocates maintain the oil industry likes
it that way.

"By creating a situation of extremely tight
supply, the oil companies gain control over price
at the wholesale level,"
says Mark Cooper of the Consumer Federation of
America. He argues the refining industry "has no
interest in creating
spare (refining) capacity."




------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 17:06:48 -0400
From: eclecticdr@aol.com
Subject: [permaculture] (no subject)
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <8C97F3A8D7070EB-E20-79F6@WEBMAIL-RD19.sysops.aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"


Please regretfully remove me from the permaculture list.? There are way to many extraneous messages with too few cogent ideas.

Thanks,

Michael

Eclecticdr@aol.com

________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.


------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 08:31:48 +1000
From: Robyn Francis <erda@nor.com.au>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Design-Bioregional-Energy Policy-The
Sustainability of Bio...
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <C29BF374.390F%erda@nor.com.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

On 18/6/07 4:03 AM, "Marimike6@cs.com" <Marimike6@cs.com> wrote:

> I see they used 755.2 trillion btus of natural gas-- nearly all, I would
> suspect, in electrical generation-- plus 325.5 trillion btus from nuclear
> power,
> 699.1 trillion btus from coal, 176.1 trillion btus from biomass and a
> negligible amount (2.7 trillion btus) from hydroelectric power. Or, very
> roughly,
> 1,200,000,000,000 btus total for the year.
>
> That's a lot of juice. Just so we can wrap our heads around the concept,
> could someone with a grasp of the new solar technology size a system for us
> that
> could, say, provide just a trillion btus per year? I'd like to see what we're
> talking about.

IMO Looking at renewables to replace such a massive consumption of energy is
a doomed techno-fix approach.
The permaculture approach would be to look first at where energy savings can
be most effectively achieved. E.g. In the state of Qld 40% pf domestic
electricity is used for water heating, the state government has now made
solar water heaters mandatory for all new homes and offers subsidies for
homeowners to switch from electricity to solar.
Smart business initiatives are slashing power consumption on that front e.g.
20% power savings simply from switching off all computers & equipment of
stand-by and non-essential lighting at night when the office is closed.

Once you start eliminating these excessive and wasteful demands on
production (and they really start to add up to substantial amounts once
there's a good number of strategies), then exploring the logistics of
renewable sources for essential needs become a far more feasible exercise.

Robyn

"Change your life - not the climate"







------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 18:59:05 -0400
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@intrex.net>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Ethanol fuel, gas prices, food prices,
deforestation
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <4675BCB9.7080102@intrex.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed

Robert Waldrop wrote:
> A lot of folks are trying to make much hay out of
> the supposed refinery shortage. But the real
> problem is peak oil. Why should an international
> oil corporation invest big bucks to expand its
> refining capacity when soon there won't be enough
> crude oil?

Where did you get this information
Do you regard that source as credible?
Do you believe that theory as opposed to
that of "keeping gas prices artificially high
while they invest in ethanol production (or corn commodity
or stocks in gmo's, ethanol distribution and sales, etc.)"

> The refinery shortage is going to
> resolve itself in the near term by being exposed
> as a "crude oil shortage". World oil production
> peaked in May 2005, and it has been all downhill

Is that from a reliable source?

> since then. not a very steep decline, but a
> decline nevertheless. It remains to be seen if
> May 2005 was "it", or a bump on a plateau, but in
> this case it is best to not bet against Mother
> Nature nor the Laws of Thermodynamics.
>
> Bob Waldrop, OKC

What we need to be doing is:

1) keep drinking water pure and unpolluted
2) recycle solid waste:
- metals
- toxic metals
- plastics
- wood products
3) recycle clean compostable solid waste products
- food waste
- wood products waste
- biomass: certain clean industrial and manufacturing byproducts, landscape waste & paper products
- humanure
4) Use the output of 3) to grow trees, ornamental landscapes, more biomass, wood products and
plants that can be turned into paper
5) Use the output of 3)
- to grow perennial and tree food crops, grains, hay forage
- for forest farming
- to create pastures for free-range, pastured and grass fed livestock
- use the cleanest to grow food crops

Society needs to adjust to efficient recycling of humanure, preferably through onsite, residential
biological systems that work through all seasons. I have some ideas on the drawing board for
a family-sized system that is connected to a residential structure. It uses concrete, concrete block,
AAC insulating block (Aercon) or rigid foamboard, glass or clear polycarbonate, nontoxic pressure treated lumber,
recycled composite plastic lumber offering options, with provision for squat or elevated conventional position
and standing. Simple, durable, indestructible, sanitary and reliable.

LL
--
Lawrence F. London, Jr.
Venaura Farm
lfl@intrex.net
http://market-farming.com
http://market-farming.com/venaurafarm
http://venaurafarm.blogspot.com/
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech



------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 19:00:13 -0400
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@intrex.net>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] (no subject)
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <4675BCFD.3070704@intrex.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed

eclecticdr@aol.com wrote:

> Please regretfully remove me from the permaculture list. There are way to many extraneous messages with too few cogent ideas.

Hang in there; things will improve, I promise. - LL
--
Lawrence F. London, Jr.
Venaura Farm
lfl@intrex.net
http://market-farming.com
http://market-farming.com/venaurafarm
http://venaurafarm.blogspot.com/
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech



------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 18:47:14 -0500
From: "Robert Waldrop" <bwaldrop@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Ethanol fuel, gas prices, food prices,
deforestation
To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <018c01c7b139$d5805c80$6400a8c0@bobcomputer>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@intrex.net>
> Where did you get this information

Among other things I do, I moderate
runningonempty2@yahoogroups.com which has been
discussing peak oil and its related energy issues
since 2001. We have about 7200 members and 55,000
messages in our archive. The idea that the dearth
in refinery construction is due to peak oil is a
very common topic of the discussion there and
elsewhere (e.g. Association for the Study of Peak
Oil, http://www.peakoil.net/ ). Corporations are
in business to make money. Under US law, they
have no other purpose than making money for their
shareholders (I don't agree with that, but I think
it is an accurate description of the present
situation). Thus, it makes no sense for them to
expand refinery production because future world
oil production won't support an expanded refinery
system.

> Do you regard that source as credible?

Yes.

> Do you believe that theory as opposed to
> that of "keeping gas prices artificially high
> while they invest in ethanol production (or corn
> commodity
> or stocks in gmo's, ethanol distribution and
> sales, etc.)"

I don't think gasoline prices are artificially
high. I think they are artificially low, and I
think that that concept, besides being a peak oil
axiom, is also a permaculture idea. The net
effect of the combination of oil corporation and
government action throughout the 20th century has
been to shift the costs of petroleum production
and consumption off of those doing the producing
and onto the general public and the environment.
If all the externalities of a gallon of oil could
be allocated to the price of that gallon, it would
surely be at least $10-$15/gallon. That would be
a minimum "fair permaculture price" for a gallon
of gasoline.

Rising gasoline prices are not a bad thing from
the viewpoint of the permaculture, it seems to me.
Rising gasoline prices are not only a good thing,
they are a necessary thing. If we want petroleum
consumption to decline, then the price must
increase.

At $3.20/gallon, the price of gasoline is only 20
cents per cup. Coca-Cola is more expensive in the
United States than gasoline.

>> The refinery shortage is going to
>> resolve itself in the near term by being
>> exposed
>> as a "crude oil shortage". World oil
>> production
>> peaked in May 2005, and it has been all
>> downhill
>
> Is that from a reliable source?

The May 2005 peak data is from US Department of
Energy, Energy Information Administration, Monthly
Energy Report, go to
http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/mer/inter.html and
click on the link to world oil production. It was
74.151 Million Barrels per Day in May 2005, and
Feb 2007 production, the most recent available at
this site, was 73.195 million barrels.

Bob Waldrop, OKC



------------------------------

Message: 13
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 01:40:10 +0100
From: Graham <grahamburnett@blueyonder.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] BodyPolictic-Political Humor-Congress
Votes to Outsource Presidency!
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <4675D46A.7000407@blueyonder.co.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Allow political discussion on the forum and divisiveness is inevitable.
Lawrence, I still sagely nod at your disallowing of my post about the UK
McLibel Trial all those years back. It wasn't irrelevant to the
permaculture debate but didn't belong on this list. There are plenty of
other forums for Political (big 'P') discussion, lets keep the
internatrional permaculture forum focussed on positive solutions and
ways forward to abundant living in post energy descent futures and what
we can do thats positive and practical now...

Cheers Graham www.spiralseed.co.uk

Lawrence F. London, Jr. wrote:
> Kenneth Benway wrote:
>
>> LL,
>> Well I've got to be honest with you Lawrence; I'm going to need a little
>> time to respond to most of these comments.
>> I find it sad that you took offense.
>>
>
> OT = Off Topic
>
>



------------------------------

Message: 14
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 01:31:30 +0100
From: Graham <grahamburnett@blueyonder.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Keith Johnson for President!
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <4675D262.9050003@blueyonder.co.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Thank you for that concise summary of my own thoughts Keith!!

Keith Johnson wrote:


Politicians,
> in general, would be more effective if they were mulched...deeply ;-) .
> Keith
>
>
>>
>>



------------------------------

Message: 15
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 21:19:28 -0500
From: Tommy Tolson <healinghawk@earthlink.net>
Subject: [permaculture] Shit
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <4675EBB0.8050301@earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Robyn Francis wrote:
>
> IMO Looking at renewables to replace such a massive consumption of energy is
> a doomed techno-fix approach.
> The permaculture approach would be to look first at where energy savings can
> be most effectively achieved. E.g. In the state of Qld 40% pf domestic
> electricity is used for water heating, the state government has now made
> solar water heaters mandatory for all new homes and offers subsidies for
> homeowners to switch from electricity to solar.
> Smart business initiatives are slashing power consumption on that front e.g.
> 20% power savings simply from switching off all computers & equipment of
> stand-by and non-essential lighting at night when the office is closed.
>
> Once you start eliminating these excessive and wasteful demands on
> production (and they really start to add up to substantial amounts once
> there's a good number of strategies), then exploring the logistics of
> renewable sources for essential needs become a far more feasible exercise.
>
> Robyn
>
> "Change your life - not the climate"
>
In the US, 30% of total power consumption goes to facilitate citizens
continuing to shit in their drinking water.
We clear-cut forests in order to make paper with which to wipe our butts.
Doesn't this indicate a serious problem with shitting somewhat ethically?
I consider this to be the sort of energy problem that has potential to
encourage a just, sacred, and sustainable society.
Virtually no one is willing to be responsible for their own shit,
literally (and figuratively, too).
What would Permaculture do?
In California, composting toilets are against state law as the only
means of handling shit. A house must have a water toilet.
Where I lived, in southern Santa Rosa, California, the ground water on
the Santa Rosa Plain was all sewer water from local septic systems.
To whom is this acceptable?
Built wetlands have, as a by-product, septage that has to be transported
off-site ever so often.
/The Humanure Handbook/ does not show up in searches on BN.com or
alibris.com. Joseph Jenkins has shit figured out but no one likes his
solution, apparently.
How shall we shit so we can live with the results?

Tommy Tolson
Austin, TX


------------------------------

Message: 16
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 19:34:39 -0700
From: Paul Cereghino <paul.cereghino@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Crabgrass, Bermuda grass, etc.
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <4675EF3F.2050009@comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed


>I also noticed that places with plantago lanceolata and plantago maior
> (plantain) are free of crabgrass, but I don?t know how effective they
> are for combating this type of grass.
>
>
>
I associate plantain with poor winter drainage. Perhaps that is what the
crabgrass can't take. I recall from unknown sources that winter rye is
allelopathic, and so makes a good smother crop -- so confirmation
through hearsay.
Paul Cereghino



------------------------------

Message: 17
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 21:47:54 -0500
From: Tommy Tolson <healinghawk@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Ethanol fuel, gas prices, food prices,
deforestation
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <4675F25A.1040706@earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Richard Heinberg's book, /The Party's Over/, pretty much documents each
of Bob's points. Heinberg's book is widely considered authoritative.
If you haven't read it, prepare to be shocked. Heinberg tells the
truth. He was my teacher at New College in Santa Rosa, California and
changed my life forever.

Tommy Tolson
Austin, TX


------------------------------

Message: 18
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 20:08:16 -0700
From: "Golden Love" <goldenlove@cruzio.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Crabgrass, Bermuda grass, etc.
To: "'permaculture'" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <009901c7b155$edd7fc40$6601a8c0@LG1>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I fried my Bermuda and Kikuyu grass using black plastic tarps. None to be
found now.

Golden Love
Love's Gardens
Creating and Maintaining Sustainable Urban Landscapes
California Licensed Contractor C27 363672
127 National St.
Santa Cruz, CA 95060
Phone (831) 471-9100
Fax ( 831) 471-9200
goldenlove@cruzio.com


-----Original Message-----
From: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Dieter Brand
Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2007 2:58 AM
To: permaculture
Subject: [permaculture] Crabgrass, Bermuda grass, etc.

Many thanks to all who replied in this thread. Apart from crabgrass
and Bermuda grass, there is also Kikuyu Grass. We are blessed with
all three of them. Among the 3 methods for controlling this type of
grass:

- applying lime,
- spreading partially decayed wood mulch
- growing rye or ryegrass,

I like the rye or ryegrass best, since it permits to grow new biomass
in the process. I actually had some patches with rye and ryegrass in
the winter, so far they seem to be free of crabgrass, but the real test
will come in the summer.

I also noticed that places with plantago lanceolata and plantago maior
(plantain) are free of crabgrass, but I don't know how effective they
are for combating this type of grass.

Dieter Brand
Portugal






------------------------------

_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture


End of permaculture Digest, Vol 53, Issue 47
********************************************

_________________________________________________________________
Like puzzles? Play free games & earn great prizes. Play Clink now. http://club.live.com/clink.aspx?icid=clink_hotmailtextlink2




  • Re: [permaculture] permaculture Digest, Vol 53, Issue 47, Maureen Sutton, 06/18/2007

Archive powered by MHonArc 2.6.24.

Top of Page