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  • From: "Robert Waldrop" <bwaldrop@cox.net>
  • To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] The main reason why Newagers dominatepermaculture.
  • Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 18:55:03 -0600

Well, I remain dubious about this list as a place for theological discussion, but perhaps we could frame the discussion in terms of the permaculture ethic of care for people and the permaculture principle of respect for diversity.

Should we judge all Muslims by the actions, rhetoric, and beliefs of Osama bin Laden and his Al Queda organization?

Should we judge all white people by the actions, rhetoric, and beliefs of David Duke and the Ku Klux Klan?

Should we judge all Buddhists by the actions of the Japanese army during World War II?

Should we judge all Africans by the actions of Idi Amin or those who carried out the Rwandan genocide?

I think most of us would say "no". Yet, when the subject of Christianity comes up, people are quick to judge all Christians by the actions and beliefs of __________ (fill in the blank with your favorite Christian boogerman), such as you and others have in your comments about various unnamed Christian leaders.

The next point I would make is that if someone wants to attack Christianity, that's fine, but I think they should first do their homework to make sure that their point is valid and not a straw man argument invented for the purpose of winning points. A case at hand is the common allegation that the Abrahamic religions teach that the material world is evil, and all that matters is the spiritual world to come. This is simply not true. The big argument in ancient times between early Catholicism and the Gnostics turned on this very point, with the Gnostics taking the position that the material world was evil and thus all that mattered was the spiritual world. The Christian point of view was and is that the world was created by God, who looked at Creation and said, "This is good work."

The third point I would make is that the Abrahamic religions are ancient and diverse and should not be tarred with one brush as if there was no difference between a televangelist and someone like Dorothy Day or Mother Teresa.

Finally, I have no doubt that Christians, Jews, and Muslims have caused evil in this world, just as Buddhists, Hindus, atheists, agnostics, and animists have all done some very terrible things. Generally in discussions like this, it's fun to focus on the evil boogermen doing all these nasty things, and easy to ignore all those non-boogermen who are doing works of justice, peace, beauty, and wisdom. In 2006 our little Catholic Worker house here in Oklahoma City delivered more than 150,000 pounds of food to people in need who didn't have transportation to get to a food bank. My friends at the Holy Family Catholic Worker house in Kansas City feed 200-300 people every day in an old house in a poor neighborhood.

So, at minimum, people could try to understand that the situation is not as simplistic as some here would have us believe.

Bob Waldrop, founder
Oscar Romero Catholic Worker House, www.justpeace.org
see also www.catholicworker.org



----- Original Message ----- From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@intrex.net>
To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 5:32 PM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] The main reason why Newagers dominatepermaculture.



Robert Waldrop wrote:

I'm not going to get into a detailed religious
debate here, except to say that while you hear
this kind of loose talk a lot, this paragraph
quoted below is a very shallow and incomplete
reading of the theology of the Abrahamic
religions.

I don't think Scott claims to be a Biblical scholar
or intended his comments to be concise and reflect any
accurate interpretation of Christian scripture. It was a general statement,
loose, as you say, easy to read between the lines and derive a general meaning
from what he said. Maybe you should fill us in on what we are missing.
After witnessing the gyrations and antics of many present day Christian leaders
I feel that he is right on the money, as are those leaders, onto the $oney, that is.

----- Original Message -----
The core of Judeo/Christian belief is that
we got kicked out of the Garden, and the Earth
is a lesser world for us to dominate and use as
we see fit, until we die and go to heaven or
Armagedon comes. In any case the spititual
"Prize" they are after isn't here on earth.

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