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  • From: Scott Vlaun <scott@moosepondarts.com>
  • To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>, Loren Davidson <listmail@lorendavidson.com>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] National Animal ID program
  • Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 11:16:15 -0500


Scott Vlaun
Moose Pond Arts+Ecology
Design Solutions for a Sustainable Future

35 Moose Pond Road
Otisfield, Maine 04270
207-739-2409 Studio
207-890-4099 Cell


On Feb 28, 2006, at 10:58 AM, Loren Davidson wrote:

At 2:59 AM -0500 2/28/06, Lawrence F. London, Jr. wrote:
Loren Davidson wrote:

Do you farm or otherwise work the land in any way for a living? Probably not.

Does this determine whether or not I get to have a legitimate opinion
as to the level of discourse on this, or any other, mailing list I'm
on? I think it's irrelevant to the discussion of whether or not
people on this list treat people who disagree with them with simple,
common courtesy.

Do I think that an onerous registration program for agriculture is a
good idea? Nope. I'm just trying to make sense from multiple points
of view from people I've never met, and IMO the first person to start
slinging shit loses credibility first.

To me, the credible way to disagree with someone is to politely ask
for their sources and cite your own, without ripping them a new
asshole. Otherwise, it starts to sound like Creationism Vs.
Evolutionism Round 73.


Innuendos, hell. There are mailing lists I moderate on which
namecalling like "hysterical BS" is clearly defined as a personal
attack/insult, and would get the poster warned and/or booted for
repeat offenses.

Sounds like Fascism to me.

Actually, I call it "making and keeping agreements about the
container in which we're having the discussion." On those lists, the
rules are something everyone agrees to when they subscribe. It means
that, on lists like that, *I* don't get to call *you* an arrogent,
blivet-brained moron anytime I don't like the way you punctuate your
sentences.

You don't believe that polite discourse is a better way to get the
widest range of useful info on a mailing list? Or do you only call it
"Fascism" if it's *your* ability to throw tantrums that's challenged?
You wouldn't be the first. Actually, the other cliche of the person
who objects to having his abuse interrupted (it's almost always men)
is to claim protection under the First Amendment. I suppose that's
next.


Whatever happened to "thoughtful and protracted observation?" Care of
the Earth? Care of the people? How does namecalling promote *any* of
that?

What namecalling? You're fantasizing.

Okay, instant poll: How many people feel that calling someone's words
"hysterical BS" is namecalling? How many not? On or off list, as you
please.

If only one person calls you a horse (or some significant portion
thereof), you can ignore them. If a room full of people call you a
horse, get a saddle.


If we're going to start ripping each other apart over "matters of
faith," we're going to do Monsanto's work for them. If you can't

Let's see you and js do more to help defend small scale agriculture,
homestead farmers and local market farmers against
the ravages of government sponsored fascistic rulemaking, subsidies
and tax breaks bought and paid for by the likes of
Monsanto, which with the rest of The Cabal would probably like to
take over our food supply and probably more. If you
want to rail at someone rail at them.


Um, Larry? Did someone spike your meds lately?

The "oppression inherent in the system" is no excuse for failure to
treat people with common courtesy, IMO. Unless you've become an
"evangelical farmer" or some such, ready to send all non-believers to
the auto-da-fe. Which is unfortunately what you're sounding like
here, and it's scary. This is how religious wars start. Next you'll
be issuing "farmer fatwas."

I also feel that it's a point of view that is totally incompatible
with Permaculture as I know it. But I'll admit that I'm not one of
the individuals who coined the term, so perhaps my understanding of
the term is faulty.

We need to be working together, recognizing and incorporating
diversity in a social/political polyculture, not creating a monocrop
of opinions. and using rhetorical Roundup to wither those with which
we disagree.

I'll stop now. I've got other things that need doing.

Loren

--
Loren Davidson listmail@lorendavidson.com
Folk music with tropical attitude - http://www.lorendavidson.com
"What Heaven brought you and me cannot be forgotten" - Curtis/ Curtis/Stills
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