permaculture

[Scott Vlaun <scott@moosepondarts.com>]

Scott Vlaun
Moose Pond Arts+Ecology
Design Solutions for a Sustainable Future

35 Moose Pond Road
Otisfield, Maine 04270
207-739-2409 Studio
207-890-4099 Cell


On Feb 28, 2006, at 10:58 AM, Loren Davidson wrote:

> At 2:59 AM -0500 2/28/06, Lawrence F. London, Jr. wrote:
> > Loren Davidson wrote:
> >
> > Do you farm or otherwise work the land in any way for a living?  
> > Probably not.
>
> Does this determine whether or not I get to have a legitimate opinion
> as to the level of discourse on this, or any other, mailing list I'm
> on? I think it's irrelevant to the discussion of whether or not
> people on this list treat people who disagree with them with simple,
> common courtesy.
>
> Do I think that an onerous registration program for agriculture is a
> good idea? Nope. I'm just trying to make sense from multiple points
> of view from people I've never met, and IMO the first person to start
> slinging shit loses credibility first.
>
> To me, the credible way to disagree with someone is to politely ask
> for their sources and cite your own, without ripping them a new
> asshole. Otherwise, it starts to sound like Creationism Vs.
> Evolutionism Round 73.
>
> > >  Innuendos, hell. There are mailing lists I moderate on which
> > >  namecalling like "hysterical BS" is clearly defined as a personal
> > >  attack/insult, and would get the poster warned and/or booted for
> > >  repeat offenses.
> >
> > Sounds like Fascism to me.
>
> Actually, I call it "making and keeping agreements about the
> container in which we're having the discussion." On those lists, the
> rules are something everyone agrees to when they subscribe. It means
> that, on lists like that, *I* don't get to call *you* an arrogent,
> blivet-brained moron anytime I don't like the way you punctuate your
> sentences.
>
> You don't believe that polite discourse is a better way to get the
> widest range of useful info on a mailing list? Or do you only call it
> "Fascism" if it's *your* ability to throw tantrums that's challenged?
> You wouldn't be the first. Actually, the other cliche of the person
> who objects to having his abuse interrupted (it's almost always men)
> is to claim protection under the First Amendment. I suppose that's
> next.
>
> > >  Whatever happened to "thoughtful and protracted observation?"  
> > > Care of
> > >  the Earth? Care of the people? How does namecalling promote  
> > > *any* of
> > >  that?
> >
> > What namecalling? You're fantasizing.
>
> Okay, instant poll: How many people feel that calling someone's words
> "hysterical BS" is namecalling? How many not? On or off list, as you
> please.
>
> If only one person calls you a horse (or some significant portion
> thereof), you can ignore them. If a room full of people call you a
> horse, get a saddle.
>
> > >  If we're going to start ripping each other apart over "matters of
> > >  faith," we're going to do Monsanto's work for them. If you can't
> >
> > Let's see you and js do more to help defend small scale agriculture,
> > homestead farmers and local market farmers against
> > the ravages of government sponsored fascistic rulemaking, subsidies
> > and tax breaks bought and paid for by the likes of
> > Monsanto, which with the rest of The Cabal would probably like to
> > take over our food supply and probably more. If you
> > want to rail at someone rail at them.
>
> Um, Larry? Did someone spike your meds lately?
>
> The "oppression inherent in the system" is no excuse for failure to
> treat people with common courtesy, IMO. Unless you've become an
> "evangelical farmer" or some such, ready to send all non-believers to
> the auto-da-fe. Which is unfortunately what you're sounding like
> here, and it's scary. This is how religious wars start. Next you'll
> be issuing "farmer fatwas."
>
> I also feel that it's a point of view that is totally incompatible
> with Permaculture as I know it. But I'll admit that I'm not one of
> the individuals who coined the term, so perhaps my understanding of
> the term is faulty.
>
> We need to be working together, recognizing and incorporating
> diversity in a social/political polyculture, not creating a monocrop
> of opinions. and using rhetorical Roundup to wither those with which
> we disagree.
>
> I'll stop now. I've got other things that need doing.
>
> Loren
>
> --
> Loren Davidson          listmail@lorendavidson.com
> Folk music with tropical attitude - http://www.lorendavidson.com
> "What Heaven brought you and me cannot be forgotten" - Curtis/ 
> Curtis/Stills
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