permaculture

[Loren Davidson <listmail@lorendavidson.com>]

At 2:59 AM -0500 2/28/06, Lawrence F. London, Jr. wrote:
> Loren Davidson wrote:
>
> Do you farm or otherwise work the land in any way for a living? Probably not.

Does this determine whether or not I get to have a legitimate opinion 
as to the level of discourse on this, or any other, mailing list I'm 
on? I think it's irrelevant to the discussion of whether or not 
people on this list treat people who disagree with them with simple, 
common courtesy.

Do I think that an onerous registration program for agriculture is a 
good idea? Nope. I'm just trying to make sense from multiple points 
of view from people I've never met, and IMO the first person to start 
slinging shit loses credibility first.

To me, the credible way to disagree with someone is to politely ask 
for their sources and cite your own, without ripping them a new 
asshole. Otherwise, it starts to sound like Creationism Vs. 
Evolutionism Round 73.

> >  Innuendos, hell. There are mailing lists I moderate on which
> >  namecalling like "hysterical BS" is clearly defined as a personal
> >  attack/insult, and would get the poster warned and/or booted for
> >  repeat offenses.
>
> Sounds like Fascism to me.

Actually, I call it "making and keeping agreements about the 
container in which we're having the discussion." On those lists, the 
rules are something everyone agrees to when they subscribe. It means 
that, on lists like that, *I* don't get to call *you* an arrogent, 
blivet-brained moron anytime I don't like the way you punctuate your 
sentences.

You don't believe that polite discourse is a better way to get the 
widest range of useful info on a mailing list? Or do you only call it 
"Fascism" if it's *your* ability to throw tantrums that's challenged? 
You wouldn't be the first. Actually, the other cliche of the person 
who objects to having his abuse interrupted (it's almost always men) 
is to claim protection under the First Amendment. I suppose that's 
next.

> >  Whatever happened to "thoughtful and protracted observation?" Care of
> >  the Earth? Care of the people? How does namecalling promote *any* of
> >  that?
>
> What namecalling? You're fantasizing.

Okay, instant poll: How many people feel that calling someone's words 
"hysterical BS" is namecalling? How many not? On or off list, as you 
please.

If only one person calls you a horse (or some significant portion 
thereof), you can ignore them. If a room full of people call you a 
horse, get a saddle.

> >  If we're going to start ripping each other apart over "matters of
> >  faith," we're going to do Monsanto's work for them. If you can't
>
> Let's see you and js do more to help defend small scale agriculture, 
> homestead farmers and local market farmers against
> the ravages of government sponsored fascistic rulemaking, subsidies 
> and tax breaks bought and paid for by the likes of
> Monsanto, which with the rest of The Cabal would probably like to 
> take over our food supply and probably more. If you
> want to rail at someone rail at them.

Um, Larry? Did someone spike your meds lately?

The "oppression inherent in the system" is no excuse for failure to 
treat people with common courtesy, IMO. Unless you've become an 
"evangelical farmer" or some such, ready to send all non-believers to 
the auto-da-fe. Which is unfortunately what you're sounding like 
here, and it's scary. This is how religious wars start. Next you'll 
be issuing "farmer fatwas."

I also feel that it's a point of view that is totally incompatible 
with Permaculture as I know it. But I'll admit that I'm not one of 
the individuals who coined the term, so perhaps my understanding of 
the term is faulty.

We need to be working together, recognizing and incorporating 
diversity in a social/political polyculture, not creating a monocrop 
of opinions. and using rhetorical Roundup to wither those with which 
we disagree.

I'll stop now. I've got other things that need doing.

Loren

--
Loren Davidson          listmail@lorendavidson.com
Folk music with tropical attitude - http://www.lorendavidson.com
"What Heaven brought you and me cannot be forgotten" - Curtis/Curtis/Stills