permaculture

["Rich Blaha" <rich@mossbackfarm.com>]

Some thoughts on Paul's plan and the responses....

-If you want the pond to outlive you, definitely keep the trees off of it.  
I'm in the process of restoring a ~30 yearold pond that leaks like a sieve.  
Build yours right & you won't have future generations cursing your name.

-I'm only passingly familiar with your area, but I bet your summers are 
pretty hot....unless you have a very deep pond, and/or good flow-through in 
the dry months, water temperature, not pond productivity, is going to be your 
limiting factor for trout.  Shade, whether from docks, trees, or floating 
gardens, will probably be important

- [woodsjay said] Also run the incoming water (if there is an appropriate
>  grade) into the pond with a wide mouthed flume so that the
>  water falls as a curtain from a height. This will both cool
>  and oxygenate the water both of which the trout need.  

  



-


>  
>     1. wide shade trees (Paul Wheaton)
>     2. Re: wide shade trees (woodsjay@cox.net)
>     3. Re: http://www.permacultureactivist.net/ (Keith Johnson)
>     4. Re: trees and ponds (Keith Johnson)
>     5. Permaculture Calendar Hogs (Keith Johnson)
>     6. [Fwd: guild design help] (Keith Johnson)
>     7. Re: Sonic Bloom  (Steve Diver)
>     8. Re: wide shade trees (Robyn Francis)
>     9. Re: wide shade trees (Paul Wheaton)
>    10. Floating Gardens (wide shade trees) (DAVIDMATTHEWEDGE@aol.com)
>  
>  
>  ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>  
>  Message: 1
>  Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 09:41:59 -0800 (PST)
>  From: Paul Wheaton <paul@richsoil.com>
>  Subject: [permaculture] wide shade trees
>  To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
>  Message-ID: <20050206174159.50910.qmail@web13801.mail.yahoo.com>
>  Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>  
>  Let me try a slightly different approach ...
>  
>  Can somebody suggest a tree for zone 5 that would provide really wide 
> shade?
>  
>  
>  
>  --- Paul Wheaton <paul@richsoil.com> wrote:
>  
>  > I'm preparing to dig several ponds this year to raise trout.  I'm on the 
> west slope of
>  > the rocky mountains about 50 miles south of the Canadian border.
>  >
>  > I know that one of the big rules is to never plant trees on a dam.  
>  >
>  > I also know that if you want the pond to be cool (which trout require) 
> it is wise to
>  > plant trees on the south side of the pond.  
>  >
>  > What if the dam is on the south side?
>  >
>  > I suppose one could plant a tree that has a lot of spreading habbit and 
> plant those at
>  > the dam edges.  Any suggestions on what variety of tree that might be?
>  >
>  > I suppose that would be a really good place to build a dock.  
>  >
>  > Any suggestions?
>  >
>  > _______________________________________________
>  > permaculture mailing list
>  > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>  > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>  >
>  
>  
>  
>  ------------------------------
>  
>  Message: 2
>  Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 14:20:46 -0500
>  From: <woodsjay@cox.net>
>  Subject: Re: [permaculture] wide shade trees
>  To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
>  Message-ID:
>  <20050206192046.CUHV6774.lakermmtao06.cox.net@smtp.east.cox.net>
>  Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>  
>  The tallest (and widest) trees in Omaha are the cottonwoods
>  at over 100 years old and cover 60 feet in diameter. I
>  believe that northern pecans will match them when full
>  grown as they are reputed to cover over 70 feet in diameter  
>  (and bear nuts). Both are very fast growing and have
>  excellent wood for lumber. Downhill from a dam would be
>  advantageous for the cottonwood.  
>  
>  Also run the incoming water (if there is an appropriate
>  grade) into the pond with a wide mouthed flume so that the
>  water falls as a curtain from a height. This will both cool
>  and oxygenate the water both of which the trout need.  
>  
>  On Sunday 06 February 2005 11:41, Paul Wheaton wrote:
>  > Let me try a slightly different approach ...
>  >
>  > Can somebody suggest a tree for zone 5 that would provide
>  really wide
>  > shade?
>  >
>  > --- Paul Wheaton <paul@richsoil.com> wrote:
>  > > I'm preparing to dig several ponds this year to raise
>  trout.  I'm on the
>  > > west slope of the rocky mountains about 50 miles south
>  of the Canadian
>  > > border.
>  > >
>  > > I know that one of the big rules is to never plant
>  trees on a dam.
>  > >
>  > > I also know that if you want the pond to be cool (which
>  trout require) it
>  > > is wise to plant trees on the south side of the pond.
>  > >
>  > > What if the dam is on the south side?
>  > >
>  > > I suppose one could plant a tree that has a lot of
>  spreading habbit and
>  > > plant those at the dam edges.  Any suggestions on what
>  variety of tree
>  > > that might be?
>  
>  
>  
>  ------------------------------
>  
>  Message: 3
>  Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 14:47:14 -0500
>  From: Keith Johnson <keithdj@mindspring.com>
>  Subject: Re: [permaculture] http://www.permacultureactivist.net/
>  To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
>  Message-ID: <42067442.20505@mindspring.com>
>  Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
>  
>  Thanks to all who offered suggestions to improve the Permaculture
>  Activist site. It has just undergone a rigorous 6 day revamp process to
>  simplify and condense it substantially with fewer and smaller graphics.
>  
>  The process is not complete yet. I still intend to add a Paypal shopping
>  cart to the books and subscription pages, and links so folks can make
>  donations (Peter and I are struggling to pull together the funds to
>  attend the IPC7 and a little capital input would make it easier for me
>  to improve the site even further).
>  
>  I will be breaking up the large pages into smaller pages and adding more
>  articles from past issues (stay tuned).
>  
>  I've added a search engine function to the site (but may replace it with
>  a more eco-friendly search engine. Any recommendations?)
>  
>  The menu bar has been shrunk a bit, but I aim to install unfolding
>  ("drop-down") features. Anybody have a good java script for this? I
>  bought a program to help me do this but when I uploaded the menu I
>  started getting messages from folks who said it crashed their machines
>  or took forever to download the page.
>  
>  The Directories still have large gaps in them, states and countries with
>  no contacts (I know they're out there), so help from y'all in finding
>  them would be much appreciated.
>  
>  I've started designing a Homeplanet Security / Defense page and am still
>  imagining what might go there. Helpful hints, links?
>  
>  Any other pages / directories you'd like to see?
>  
>  Replies to Sean below:
>  
>  >- permaculture based web merchant solution, such as
>  >what pay pal provides.  This would be a big win for a
>  >business such as the Permaculture Credit Union.
>  >
>  If PCU got into web merchant support that would be very cool. I'd sign
>  up right away (we pay $9 a month now). I already got their credit card
>  and I enjoy being able to choose it over my other cards.
>  
>  >- a greater exchange of expertise, as paypal has a
>  >free toolkit addressing these needs (same concept as an affiliate 
> program).
>  >
>  There must be a good number of folks on this list managing websites
>  ('How many', he wondered.) We could have a listserv / chat / forum /
>  blog thingie to help support each other. Who's interested?
>  
>  >- a system of reciprocal hosting agreements to enhance
>  >the availability of permaculture web sites.
>  >
>  Yeah, more of that.
>  
>  >- a library of scripts to assist less technically
>  >sophisticated members of the community to host more
>  >web sites and gain a financial harvest, reducing the
>  >burden from the greater economy.
>  >
>  I could create some pages for that with some help from y'all.
>  
>  >- standardization of goods, services, and monetary
>  >exchanges that further the permaculture cause by
>  >enabling asset poor communities to become established
>  >(hosting the PFAF database for instance, or simply
>  >exchanging seeds and seedlings for HTML work).  This
>  >is what I am trying to do with my site, albeit slow
>  >moving.  The idea could be likened to a permaculture
>  >eBay.
>  >
>  A permaculture Ebay.....is that something PCU could do? Another org?
>  PcA? Hmmmmmm. Suggestions?
>  
>  Keith Johnson
>  Permaculture Activist Magazine
>  PO Box 1209
>  Black Mountain, NC 28711
>  (828)669-6336
>  
>  also Patterns for Abundance Design & Consulting
>  Culture's Edge at Earthaven Ecovillage
>  http://www.permacultureactivist.net
>  http://www.earthaven.org
>  http://www.bioregionalcongress.org
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  --
>  No virus found in this outgoing message.
>  Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
>  Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 - Release Date: 2/3/2005
>  
>  
>  
>  ------------------------------
>  
>  Message: 4
>  Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 16:51:48 -0500
>  From: Keith Johnson <keithdj@mindspring.com>
>  Subject: Re: [permaculture] trees and ponds
>  To: paul@richsoil.com, permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
>  Message-ID: <42069174.2000203@mindspring.com>
>  Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
>  
>  If you weren't so close to Canada I would have recommended bamboo. Since
>  that is not an option I would explore other tall grasses. Other than
>  that I would recommend that you make a more linear contour type pond and
>  plant just below the retainment dams or create arched trellises over
>  them with squash or other vines on them. How big is the pond you were
>  planning?
>  Keith
>  
>  Paul Wheaton wrote:
>  
>  >I'm preparing to dig several ponds this year to raise trout.  I'm on the 
> west slope of
>  >the rocky mountains about 50 miles south of the Canadian border.
>  >
>  >I know that one of the big rules is to never plant trees on a dam.  
>  >
>  >I also know that if you want the pond to be cool (which trout require) it 
> is wise to
>  >plant trees on the south side of the pond.  
>  >
>  >What if the dam is on the south side?
>  >
>  >I suppose one could plant a tree that has a lot of spreading habbit and 
> plant those at
>  >the dam edges.  Any suggestions on what variety of tree that might be?
>  >
>  >I suppose that would be a really good place to build a dock.  
>  >
>  >Any suggestions?
>  >
>  >_______________________________________________
>  >permaculture mailing list
>  >permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>  >http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>  >
>  >  
>  >
>  
>  --
>  Keith Johnson
>  Permaculture Activist Magazine
>  PO Box 1209
>  Black Mountain, NC 28711
>  (828)669-6336
>  
>  also Patterns for Abundance Design & Consulting
>  Culture's Edge at Earthaven Ecovillage
>  http://www.permacultureactivist.net
>  http://www.earthaven.org
>  http://www.bioregionalcongress.org
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  --
>  No virus found in this outgoing message.
>  Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
>  Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 - Release Date: 2/3/2005
>  
>  
>  
>  ------------------------------
>  
>  Message: 5
>  Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 17:27:06 -0500
>  From: Keith Johnson <keithdj@mindspring.com>
>  Subject: [permaculture] Permaculture Calendar Hogs
>  To: Permaculture ibiblio <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
>  Message-ID: <420699BA.1030007@mindspring.com>
>  Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>  
>  On the Permaculture Calendars at the PcActivist I just severly edited
>  some very bloated listings. The instructions say:
>  
>  " As a courtesy to other users PLEASE BE BRIEF. In the Calendar Text
>  field, give JUST the TITLE, and LOCATION.  Entries that begin with
>  http://www.yourdomain.com or www.yourdomain.com will create a URL link
>  which, when clicked by a visitor, will take them to your website. Text
>  beginning with anything other that http:// or www will automatically
>  create a popup window.) Thanks for your cooperation.
>  
>  Brief is not a 100 word description. Having the details at your website
>  makes it unnecessary to stuff the calendar with superfluous data.
>  Thanks,
>  Keith
>  
>  --
>  Keith Johnson
>  Permaculture Activist Magazine
>  PO Box 1209
>  Black Mountain, NC 28711
>  (828)669-6336
>  
>  also Patterns for Abundance Design & Consulting
>  Culture's Edge at Earthaven Ecovillage
>  http://www.permacultureactivist.net
>  http://www.earthaven.org
>  http://www.bioregionalcongress.org
>  
>  -------------- next part --------------
>  No virus found in this outgoing message.
>  Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
>  Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 - Release Date: 2/3/2005
>  
>  ------------------------------
>  
>  Message: 6
>  Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 19:43:42 -0500
>  From: Keith Johnson <keithdj@mindspring.com>
>  Subject: [permaculture] [Fwd: guild design help]
>  To: Permaculture ibiblio <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
>  Message-ID: <4206B9BE.2010102@mindspring.com>
>  Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>  
>    Please reply off list to <projectpurity@gmail.com>
>  
>  -------- Original Message --------
>  Subject: guild design help
>  Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2005 21:31:53 -0500
>  From: "J.Bruce" <projectpurity@gmail.com>
>  To: peterbane@permacultureactivist.net, keith@permacultureactivist.net
>  
>  
>  
>  I'm familiar on a basic/moderate level with guild design and the
>  principals used to determine good ecological foodscapes... however, i
>  haven't gotten past what i've read on more than a basic level... what i
>  mean by that is that i understand the principals in the apple guild and
>  the walnut guild, but when it comes to building something around a
>  persimmon or an almond or a sassifrass, i'm stuck trying to apply the
>  same principals to those trees as are applied to the walnut and apple,
>  and while i think that it would work, its probably not going to work as
>  well as if things were geared toward the individual trees specifically.  
>  So, what i ask of you is either one of two things.
>  1) A list of several successful guild designs that you've created
>  (especially one built with the persimmon... I just love persimmons)
>  2) A reference that would provide that knowledge, or explain it better
>  than i already know.
>  
>  Any help would be greatly appreciated, i do mean that.  Permaculture has
>  become probably the most active interest i've ever had, and this is
>  where i'm stuck right now.  Thank you very much.
>  
>  JB
>  
>  
>  
>  --
>  Keith Johnson
>  Permaculture Activist Magazine
>  PO Box 1209
>  Black Mountain, NC 28711
>  (828)669-6336
>  
>  also Patterns for Abundance Design & Consulting
>  Culture's Edge at Earthaven Ecovillage
>  http://www.permacultureactivist.net
>  http://www.earthaven.org
>  http://www.bioregionalcongress.org
>  
>  -------------- next part --------------
>  No virus found in this outgoing message.
>  Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
>  Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 - Release Date: 2/3/2005
>  
>  ------------------------------
>  
>  Message: 7
>  Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 20:00:36 -0600
>  From: Steve Diver <steved@ncat.org>
>  Subject: [permaculture] Re: Sonic Bloom
>  To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>  Message-ID: <4206CBC4.7080302@ncat.org>
>  Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>  
>  A few years ago I posted the following notes on
>  seed treatments to the Permaculture List, including
>  reiki-vibrated seed treatments.
>  
>  [permaculture] Seeds Balls, Seed Treatments, Reiki-Vibrated Seeds
>  Steve Diver
>  Thu, 1 Apr 1999 18:18:27 +0000
>  https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/permaculture/1999-April/000596.html
>  
>  It refers to Don Elwood's books and the Hands of Light
>  Seed Company (which I doubt is still in business, even
>  though parts of their web page remain online).
>  
>  Elwood played music to his sprouts and used foliar misting
>  of fertilizers, as well as used a series of subtle energy
>  practices.
>  
>  I have updated information to share, as well as background
>  information to summarize.
>  
>  My notes on Sonic Bloom related plant mechanisms summarize
>  Elwood's work and they also refer to sound-wave science in
>  relation to cymatics and the chaldini figures that result.
>  
>  I can explain how to find archived web pages that are no
>  longer active, but provide access to Elwood's articles on
>  subtle energy.
>  
>  However, right now I just don't have time to summarize the
>  concepts and practices and list all the resources.
>  
>  Later,
>  
>  Steve Diver
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  ------------------------------
>  
>  Message: 8
>  Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 13:51:17 +1100
>  From: Robyn Francis <erda@nor.com.au>
>  Subject: Re: [permaculture] wide shade trees
>  To: "paul@richsoil.com, permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
>  Message-ID: <BE2D22D5.456B%erda@nor.com.au>
>  Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>  
>  While trees should not be planted onto the dam wall, you can safely plant
>  into original (undisturbed) soil either side of the wall.
>  BTW too much shade will reduce productivity - it's solar energy that drives
>  the system especially in the littoral zone (edges 0-5ft depth).
>  Perhaps some floating swamp gardens might be the go to help keep
>  temperatures cool in summer and make sure the dam has enough depth for a
>  deep cool water layer.
>  
>  Robyn
>  
>  
>  
>  On 7/2/05 4:41 AM, "Paul Wheaton" <paul@richsoil.com> wrote:
>  
>  > Let me try a slightly different approach ...
>  >
>  > Can somebody suggest a tree for zone 5 that would provide really wide 
> shade?
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  > --- Paul Wheaton <paul@richsoil.com> wrote:
>  >
>  >> I'm preparing to dig several ponds this year to raise trout.  I'm on 
> the west
>  >> slope of
>  >> the rocky mountains about 50 miles south of the Canadian border.
>  >>
>  >> I know that one of the big rules is to never plant trees on a dam.
>  >>
>  >> I also know that if you want the pond to be cool (which trout require) 
> it is
>  >> wise to
>  >> plant trees on the south side of the pond.
>  >>
>  >> What if the dam is on the south side?
>  >>
>  >> I suppose one could plant a tree that has a lot of spreading habbit and 
> plant
>  >> those at
>  >> the dam edges.  Any suggestions on what variety of tree that might be?
>  >>
>  >> I suppose that would be a really good place to build a dock.
>  >>
>  >> Any suggestions?
>  >>
>  >> _______________________________________________
>  >> permaculture mailing list
>  >> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>  >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>  >>
>  >
>  > _______________________________________________
>  > permaculture mailing list
>  > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>  > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>  
>  
>  
>  ------------------------------
>  
>  Message: 9
>  Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 06:38:55 -0800 (PST)
>  From: Paul Wheaton <paul@richsoil.com>
>  Subject: Re: [permaculture] wide shade trees
>  To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
>  Message-ID: <20050207143855.57500.qmail@web13805.mail.yahoo.com>
>  Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>  
>  > BTW too much shade will reduce productivity - it's solar energy that 
> drives
>  > the system especially in the littoral zone (edges 0-5ft depth).
>  > Perhaps some floating swamp gardens might be the go to help keep
>  > temperatures cool in summer and make sure the dam has enough depth for a
>  > deep cool water layer.
>  
>  What would be the impact of a floating swamp garden on the oxygen exchange 
> in the water?
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  ------------------------------
>  
>  Message: 10
>  Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 10:23:05 EST
>  From: DAVIDMATTHEWEDGE@aol.com
>  Subject: [permaculture] Floating Gardens (wide shade trees)
>  To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>  Message-ID: <da.1eda4726.2f38e1d9@aol.com>
>  Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>  
>  Paul, you wrote:
>  
>  What would be the impact of a floating swamp garden on the oxygen exchange 
>  
>  in the water?
>  
>  Here's the beginning of an answer:
>  
>      In addition to the gaseous exchange of the plants  in a floating swamp
>  garden, which could vary depending on species, partial  shading of a pond, 
> by
>  anything, causes movement and additional oxygenation of  the water.  
>      Cool water in the shaded areas flows to the  bottom, surface water is
>  drawn into the shaded area to replace it,  etc.  In this way much more of 
> the
>  water in the pond comes into contact  with the air than in a pond in which 
> all of
>  the water is exposed to sunlight or  is shaded.
>  
>  Thes floating gardens also mean that much more edge, that many more bugs  
> for
>  the trout, etc.
>  
>  I hope this is useful.
>  
>  David Edge
>  
>  
>  
>  ------------------------------
>  
>  _______________________________________________
>  permaculture mailing list
>  permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>  http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>  
>  
>  End of permaculture Digest, Vol 25, Issue 7
>  *******************************************
-------Original Message-------