permaculture

["GlobalCirclenet" <webmaster@globalcircle.net>]

I take issue with the PC "certification" business, and I get attacked
PERSONALLY like this:

>So please, investigate the facts
>before you spout off with unfounded opinions. The rest of your posts will
>be taken more seriously that way.

But as you see, I'm getting my information directly from the people putting
on these workshops. I'm just asking questions that someone doesn't want
asked.

While you claim to have "withheld certificates from students who fail to
meet the criteria", exactly what criteria do you mean? The only criteria
you mention is

>To get a certificate, each student must attend every module of the 72-hour
>curriculum and present a design project at the end which is critiqued by
>the teachers, the course hosts, and the students. 

And you can't do testing ("We don't administer tests"), so what standards
are there? Just pay the money, attend the classes, and do a project. And
Bingo!  They "graduate".  AND they get a certificate. Does it have their
name printed on it? Is it properly embossed in gold trim?

You claim that:
>The rules are set by Mollison and the International Permaculture
Institute.
>There is a specific 72-hour curriculum that must be taught. Enforcement,
in
>terms of policing each course, is lax because we had this ideal that we
>could be self-policing, ...

Even IF (big IF) some standard "curriculum" must be taught, there is simply
no effort to determine whether participants have learned that "curriculum".
They could almost sleep through it (long as they don't snore and attract
attention).

My question, which people seem to be evading at every opportunity, is where
is the justification for ANY kind of "certification" when there are no
accepted standards, no set body of knowledge to be tested on, and no
possible way of evaluating students' competence in permaculture?  The
excuse that students' want certificates simply tells me money is the
overriding concern.

paul@largocreekfarms.com
*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 9/16/2004 at 10:23 AM Toby Hemenway wrote:

>On 9/15/04 3:51 PM, "Debi Prather" <dprather1@austin.rr.com> wrote:
>
>> Capital P Permaculture seems to me to have a lot of emphasis
>> on personality, on certifications, what seems to me to be an almost
>network
>> marketing approach to the distribution of its ideas, where one group
goes
>> out and recruits another paying group, which then recruits others, etc.
>
>
>Debi, I've never seen Pc courses work like that. Somewhere in this list's
>archives is a whole discussion of that very topic (multi-level marketing,
>or
>some such subject. Anyone remember?) There is definitely an effort to
train
>as many teachers and practitioners as possible, to get the word out there,
>but the pyramid scheme appearance is a result in large part of not having
>developed very many effective tools for getting the word out beyond the
>design course. We've discussed here the many options, including the
weekend
>course and informal gatherings you mention. If Pc could be taught in
>schools
>(and there's a whole pros-and-cons argument there) the way so many other
>disciplines are, or if we were better organized in many ways, the whole
>desperate effort to recruit students for PDCs would go away. Perhaps the
>PDC
>format is reaching the end of its usefulness, which would be fine with me.
>It has been, however, the principal way that Pc has been able to reach so
>many people.
>
>On 9/15/04 4:19 PM, "GlobalCirclenet" <webmaster@globalcircle.net> wrote:
>
>> And who exactly sets the rules for these workshop certifications?
>> Nobody of course. There is no umbrella organization behind it all, like
>> some of the herbalist schools for example. The only standard is you pays
>> your money, you gets your certificate. Think they're going to flunk
>> somebody who paid their $700?
>
>Uh, actually, yes. Regardless of the other intelligent things you say,
your
>posts are badly marred by the assumptions (always negative, which says
>something) you make without bothering to see if there is any truth to
them.
>The rules are set by Mollison and the International Permaculture
Institute.
>There is a specific 72-hour curriculum that must be taught. Enforcement,
in
>terms of policing each course, is lax because we had this ideal that we
>could be self-policing, and that has largely been effective (half-assed
>teachers get a bad rep very fast). However, many feel that Pc has grown
too
>big for this now. Several countries have their own umbrella organizations
>beyond the international one (the US has an Eastern, and a slowly forming
>Western Pc Teachers Assn, but since most teachers are phenomenally busy
and
>must do this organizing in their spare time (ha!), these groups are not as
>active as they could be).
>
>To get a certificate, each student must attend every module of the 72-hour
>curriculum and present a design project at the end which is critiqued by
>the
>teachers, the course hosts, and the students. We don't administer tests
>because of the screams of outrage (Old-world paradigm! Elitist! Cultural
>bigot!) that arise when we talk about it. I have in a number of cases
>withheld certificates from students who fail to meet the criteria. So has
>every other instructor I can think of. So please, investigate the facts
>before you spout off with unfounded opinions. The rest of your posts will
>be
>taken more seriously that way.
>
>We've talked about dropping the certificate, but have found that at least
>half the prospective students really want it. Check the archives for
>multiple, lengthy discussions on certification; I'm not willing to rehash
>all that yet again.
>
>With regard to low-cost weekend courses, they are currently also being
>offered in Eugene and Portland OR (contact me for details) and they have
>been offered in the midwest and eastern US as well, beyond the other
venues
>mentioned. Jude Hobbs and I wrote an article for the last Pc Activist
>called
>"In Praise of the Weekend Design Course" (it's in the "Movement Musings"
>section). I'll see if I can find time to put it on my web site.
>
>Thanks to Paul Park for the open assessment of his PDC. And again, there
>are
>many, many ways to learn Pc for those not able to do a PDC. Just do it
with
>other people is all I'd suggest.
>
>Toby
>www.patternliteracy.com 
>
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