permaculture

[Mark <mpludwig@facstaff.wisc.edu>]

At 08:32 PM 8/15/02 -0400, you wrote:




> >
> Mark Wrote : OK, once you have them figured out can we wack um down?
>
>
>
>
> Claude replies: I took a one year biodynamic course this year Mark, and my
> teacher there at the Pfeiffer institute makes the good point that since man
> made the mess, clearly man needs to be involved in cleaning it up - We ARE a
> part of nature after all, so yes, our intervention is integral to the whole
> regeneration process - That being said, I notice that most "conservation"
> efforts focus mostly on whackin' and much less on planting - so, if the
> invasive species has already proven itself to outcompete that which
> surrounds it, how will whackin' um down change that but for the shortest of
> times ? Unless you plant something better suited to the (altered and
> regenerating) land, you will inevitably find yourself with the same problem,
> no ?

Well, I disagree that there is not much planting.  I see plenty around 
here.  weed control is IMO an ongoing fact of life, refinement of technique 
such as timing mowing better will of course assist with landscape 
improvement.


> Secondly, there is the notion of succession - what we perceive in our short
> life spans to be something "taking over" is in fact, in the longer term, but
> a temporary "invasion" to "colonise" and prepare the land for the next wave
> of "winners" - In other words, that invasive species is exactly what that
> land needs at that time to repair itself..... We can ACCELERATE succession,
> but we can't possibly hope to bypass it...

An succession gets interrupted all the time too.  One can only see so far 
into the future or the past with any clarity in this PC business.  That 
should not inhibit right action as long as the parts all get saved to 
paraphrase Aldo Leapold.  We won't be running out of weeds ant time soon, 
ergo I try to save the currently threatened.

> Lastly, I notice that you chose to ignore my assertion that nature really is
> much smarter than us - that she doesn't make mistakes...... IMHO there are
> countless examples of man's interpretations of what should or shouldn't live
> backfiring, and no examples that I can think of, of nature making the wrong
> choice.....

Should I prove negatives also?  Look, it's a nice picture, the earth mother 
keeping us in her warm hands, working her way through a misty master plan 
of grace and bounty.  Good for fairy tales and pagan religion.  If it gets 
you through the day, more power to you.  Basing design and implementation 
decisions on this matter of religion is not my calling.  I can say this 
while even feeling at times the hand of the unknowable in my own life and 
the blessing of the world.  I am serene in my mayhem wether cutting brush 
or burning prairie or running 100 hp tractors for pasture for renovation, I 
do not find it conflicts with my politics, spiritual life or my intellect.

> But then aagin, who knows, maybe you are that one in a billion ? ;-)

Am am what I am!




> >>> From: Mark <mpludwig@facstaff.wisc.edu>
> >>> Reply-To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> >>> Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 10:22:29 -0500
> >>> To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> >>> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Exotic Plant Eradication - Holmgren
> >>>
> >>> At 08:49 PM 8/13/02 -0400, you wrote:
> >>>> Anyway, for another perspective on the debate, check out the Holmgren
> >>>> article I attached - he talks of "ecosynthesis" - very interesting and
> >> very
> >>>> much in keeping with the Gaia theory ( not that we shouldn't and indeed
> >>>> mustn't sometimes chop and drop Mark, just that we should observe 
> the hell
> >>>> out of it first - for more on that perspaective, please read Mollison's
> >>>> inspiration - Mansanobu Fukuoka's "One Straw Revolution" - Nature
> >> really is
> >>>> much smarter than us you know...)
> >>>>
> >>>> Claude Genest
> >>>
> >>> I do not doubt that given time to adapt to new species invasion most
> >>> landscapes can reach a good equilibrium.  However the current situation
> >>> where the pesky monkey people move dozens of new species into the 
> ecosystem
> >>> and then provide boats, farm machinery, fish hatchery, botanical gardens
> >>> etc to spread them around is simply overwhelming the potential for
> >>> adapting.  Like all weed management there is a place for restraint, but
> >>> there is no where near enough effort being made to intervene in places
> >>> where the situation is clear.  Small invasions are tolerated until they
> >>> balloon into massive problems. I have seen it many times.  Ya'll 
> don't have
> >>> to be chain saw wielders if you don't want to, your all free people, 
> I'm a
> >>> libertarian, do what you will.  Don't expect me to just let pass this
> >>> balderdash that weeds aren't really a problem.
> >>> M
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Mark P. Ludwig
> >>> Poultry Research Lab
> >>> University of Wisconsin -Madison
> >>> 608-262-1730 WK
> >>> 608-846-7125 HM
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
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> >>
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> >
> > Mark P. Ludwig
> > Poultry Research Lab
> > University of Wisconsin -Madison
> > 608-262-1730 WK
> > 608-846-7125 HM
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > permaculture mailing list
> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
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Mark P. Ludwig
Poultry Research Lab
University of Wisconsin -Madison
608-262-1730 WK
608-846-7125 HM