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permaculture - Re: [permaculture] Wanna toy with a chicken coop/duck run/ veg garden design?

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  • From: Mark <mpludwig@facstaff.wisc.edu>
  • To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] Wanna toy with a chicken coop/duck run/ veg garden design?
  • Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 10:18:45 -0500

At 07:31 PM 8/14/02 +0100, you wrote:
Apologies for cross-posting.

Hi,
Since some folks asked for a graphic depiction of the idea (credit for
the idea goes to Doug Norval) I've put the whole thing, including your
comments on-line at
http://www.ibiblio.org/permaculture-online/ideas1.html
Any further ideas and comments are most welcome.
Don't just *stare* at that screen - Drop us a line and tell us something
we should know.

HTH
Ute

My problems:

1.Fencing: we need good predator protection, so the outer perimeter must be very strong
(probably ugly chain-link @ 5-6 ft). How does one get a proper door into that?

Buy or scrounge the proper type of prefab door or treat it like woven wire and build your own door. I would seriously look into electric fence for predictor control. You probably wouldn't need a big expensive charger and just a few low wires should do the trick. Maybe three if there are dogs to control.

The inner
fences must protect the veg garden from unwanted attention by the birds. How high should
they be? (I know how to clip chicken wings, and IRD I believe do not fly). What material
should I use?
4 feet 1.3m will do most critters fine esp if pinioned.

2.Access: Should I go from the outside in, i.e. one door from outer perimeter, a door each
into each of the 10m2 garden sections? Or should I go right into the straw yard and put
doors from the straw yard outwards to each of the garden sections, rather than just
popholes for occassional bird access? If I share one of the sections (3) as an access with
the birds, I'll presumably have to walk through a lot of poo? Is there an alternative?
Your house is relitivly small, could you build it with a round metal frame on rollers? rotate the house to allow acess to a given section, or You could do something like a rotating gate system to allow acess from the straw yard to the beds.

3.Material for house: Wood - good material but fierce expensive in this treeless country,
on the pro side I have a lot of old windows, i.e. not so much wood needed Stone - good
thermal mass, local material but thick walls limit space even more
Steel is cheep, often free in junk piles, rollers could come from garage doors or old bearings.

Timberframe plus wattle
+ daub - really like that idea, is it rat-proof though?
No way.
4.Floor: all serious poultry books seem to say that one needs a dry floor w/o rising damp to
keep birds healthy and productive. Any ideas/ experiences? (We have 1000mm
precipitation)

Deep litter really helps, especially wood shavings that they can stir well. a little rock P or gypsum helps bond the ammonia.
5.Roof: a simple green roof/grass roof is appealing but what shape might you suggest for an
octagon? Access roof water could somehow by syphoned into a rainwater drum for birds,
and plants, and little 'pond'. Insulation: as long as the house is reasonably dry this is not so
much of an issue here (Jan aver. 6 degrees C, July aver. 15 day-time temps.)

Roof ventilation is valuable to keep the litter dry, a coupla or some such. I think Id glaze the sunward side or be able to rotate the whole thing, sunward winter, shaderward summer.

6.Birds functions: The chickens and ducks fulfill very different functions. But since they live
in the same house, is there a way to, say, get the ducks into an established planting off
cabbages to clear the slugs w/o letting the chooks in as well. I haven't kept ducks so I'm
not familiar with their habits.

Water the ducks with a bell waterer in the beds, but make them use a nipple or little cup when with the chookks. The water become bait, a great tool when moving any animals. Feed the chooks scraps or scratch feed to lure them to the days work.
Also, is the slug control zone wide enough @1.5m? I know slugs can travel considerably
further in a night but space is limited but from experience here I know that they don't really
like crossing a bare area. -> Bird densities must be so regulated that this area stays
relatively bare or at least in very short grass without overcrowding the birds (min 10m2 per
bird oudoors).

Have you considered a gravel area as the barrier, perhaps in addition to the chook patroled area? If this included your hot wires that eliminates mowing under the fence.

As you can see the design process is far from finished - perhaps I'm going off on the wrong
tangent altogether?

Any inputs and ideas are warmly welcome.

(to alt.permaculture newsgroup or to me)

Cheers,
Ute

Update: First suggestions (and my own comments):

1.The ducks will really enjoy a good feed of cabbages whiles they munch on the slugs - you'd
really need to monitor this carefully - could be you'd only get damage on outer leaves but
I'd be very cautious. Ducks enjoy eating lots of greens, not only weeds but many vegies.
All duck breeds are omnivours and love/need lots of fresh greens in their diet. They also
enjoy insect food. The best variety for slugs and snails is the kaki cambell and I can
guarantee they also love pigging out on cabbage, lettuce and other garden greens.
Robyn
Thanks Robyn, looks like all is not as simple as it seems. Opinions seem to vary on
the best duck breed for slug control.

Indian Runners appeal to me since they
reputedly (is it true?) don't fly.

I believe thats true.

2.I would put the ducks in the outermost ring. They will denude the soil and be the best patrol
against the slugs and snails. The chooks shouldn't eat them (can't remember why now) and
their habits of sploshing water everywhere and making a muddy mess will not cause the
chooks any foot damage or illness. ('Course I'll pay to see you walking over this quagmire
during the worst of the winter gales :-))
Fran
Cheers, Fran. The problem with duck housing in the outer ring is that this would call
for another detached construction. I do however see the conflict between the messy
ducks and the 'xerophylous' chooks. In any case I will keep the duck water outdoors.
As to the quagmire - Ireland is a sodden place at the best of times... Will need good
paving or gravel path for my own movement through the access section.
3.Raise the coop on stilts (mine is about a metre off the floor) so that they can always have a
dry dust bath underneath it and to stop the floor rotting.
Thank you, Lisa. I have thought about this but it would make the greenhouse
integration quite difficult. Also it would mean that the floor must be very strong
(load bearing - my load) and to achieve head height the whole construction would he
higher again, and cast a correspondlingly longer shadow on the veg beds
W,NW,N,NE,E. Might be easier to provide a semi-closed box for dust baths outdoors,
or would that mean mud-baths?

I agree with jacking it up. Weld it up on skids even so you can pull it around if you need to. Anchor it to pileings if wind is an issue.

Make the floor of the coop open or slide out to make it easier to clean if you can do the
whole thing on a good slope you can feed at the top and collect manure at the bottom.
No slope available. Jerome Osentowski has or had such a system and it is reported to
work brilliantly.
Chickens dont like damp but ducks need a body of water and will hunt for it. Chickens
only eat small slugs but they do eat snail shells if broken up. Chickens work well with
sweetcorn as ruslting through it helps fertilisation - mine is underplanted with fenugreek.
Excellent thought about them rustling the corn. I had Buff Orpingtons which ate
snails whole. I suppose it depends on the size of the birds.

All good stuff IMO. Set up a water nipple system (Val is my favorite brand) Brood your birds on it . Try getting the ducks on it too. Ducks make a filthy mess of any standing water the cooks will drink it of course.

Do you have foxes? you may need to do some serious fencing or get some nice violent
chickens.

Yes. We do. And dogs. And mink. Where does one get violent chickens? :)

If it's male, it's probably violent. Look around at poultry swaps, you'll fine something. Many bantams very total psycho and are very nimble. get a low impedance electric fence.


If its cold in the winter the hens will need shutting in at night.
It's always cold... at least this summer...

Cold is not as big a deal as wind. If its really cold (-5 c, 10 f you may at to dub the chicks combs or use pea combed variety.

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Mark P. Ludwig
Poultry Research Lab
University of Wisconsin -Madison
608-262-1730 WK
608-846-7125 HM





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