permaculture

[Mark <mpludwig@facstaff.wisc.edu>]

At 07:31 PM 8/14/02 +0100, you wrote:
> Apologies for cross-posting.
>
> Hi,
> Since some folks asked for a graphic depiction of the idea (credit for
> the idea goes to Doug Norval) I've put the whole thing, including your
> comments on-line at
> http://www.ibiblio.org/permaculture-online/ideas1.html
> Any further ideas and comments are most welcome.
> Don't just *stare* at that screen - Drop us a line and tell us something
> we should know.
>
> HTH
> Ute

My problems:

   1.Fencing: we need good predator protection, so the outer perimeter 
must be very strong
     (probably ugly chain-link @ 5-6 ft). How does one get a proper door 
into that?

Buy or scrounge the proper type of prefab door or treat it like woven wire 
and build your own door.  I would seriously look into electric fence for 
predictor control.  You probably wouldn't need a big expensive charger and 
just a few low wires should do the trick. Maybe three if there are dogs to 
control.

The inner
     fences must protect the veg garden from unwanted attention by the 
birds. How high should
     they be? (I know how to clip chicken wings, and IRD I believe do not 
fly). What material
     should I use?
4 feet 1.3m  will do most critters fine esp if pinioned.

   2.Access: Should I go from the outside in, i.e. one door from outer 
perimeter, a door each
     into each of the 10m2 garden sections? Or should I go right into the 
straw yard and put
     doors from the straw yard outwards to each of the garden sections, 
rather than just
     popholes for occassional bird access? If I share one of the sections 
(3) as an access with
     the birds, I'll presumably have to walk through a lot of poo? Is 
there an alternative?
Your house is relitivly small, could you build it with a round metal frame 
on rollers?  rotate the house to allow acess to a given section, or  You 
could do something like a rotating gate system to allow acess from the 
straw yard to the beds.

   3.Material for house: Wood - good material but fierce expensive in this 
treeless country,
     on the pro side I have a lot of old windows, i.e. not so much wood 
needed Stone - good
     thermal mass, local material but thick walls limit space even more
Steel is cheep, often free in junk piles, rollers could come from garage 
doors or old bearings.

Timberframe plus wattle
     + daub - really like that idea, is it rat-proof though?
No way.
   4.Floor: all serious poultry books seem to say that one needs a dry 
floor w/o rising damp to
     keep birds healthy and productive. Any ideas/ experiences? (We have 
1000mm
     precipitation)

Deep litter really helps, especially wood shavings that they can stir 
well.  a little rock P or gypsum helps bond the ammonia.
   5.Roof: a simple green roof/grass roof is appealing but what shape 
might you suggest for an
     octagon? Access roof water could somehow by syphoned into a rainwater 
drum for birds,
     and plants, and little 'pond'. Insulation: as long as the house is 
reasonably dry this is not so
     much of an issue here (Jan aver. 6 degrees C, July aver. 15 day-time 
temps.)

Roof ventilation is valuable to keep the litter dry,  a coupla or some 
such.  I think Id glaze the sunward side or be able to rotate the whole 
thing, sunward winter, shaderward summer.

   6.Birds functions: The chickens and ducks fulfill very different 
functions. But since they live
     in the same house, is there a way to, say, get the ducks into an 
established planting off
     cabbages to clear the slugs w/o letting the chooks in as well. I 
haven't kept ducks so I'm
     not familiar with their habits.

Water the ducks with a bell waterer in the beds, but make them use a nipple 
or little cup when with the chookks.  The water become bait, a great tool 
when moving any animals.  Feed the chooks scraps or scratch feed to lure 
them to the days work.
     Also, is the slug control zone wide enough @1.5m? I know slugs can 
travel considerably
     further in a night but space is limited but from experience here I 
know that they don't really
     like crossing a bare area. -> Bird densities must be so regulated 
that this area stays
     relatively bare or at least in very short grass without overcrowding 
the birds (min 10m2 per
     bird oudoors).

Have you considered a gravel area as the barrier, perhaps in addition to 
the chook patroled area?   If this included your hot wires that eliminates 
mowing under the fence.

As you can see the design process is far from finished - perhaps I'm going 
off on the wrong
tangent altogether?

Any inputs and ideas are warmly welcome.

(to alt.permaculture newsgroup or to me)

Cheers,
Ute

Update: First suggestions (and my own comments):

   1.The ducks will really enjoy a good feed of cabbages whiles they munch 
on the slugs - you'd
     really need to monitor this carefully - could be you'd only get 
damage on outer leaves but
     I'd be very cautious. Ducks enjoy eating lots of greens, not only 
weeds but many vegies.
     All duck breeds are omnivours and love/need lots of fresh greens in 
their diet. They also
     enjoy insect food. The best variety for slugs and snails is the kaki 
cambell and I can
     guarantee they also love pigging out on cabbage, lettuce and other 
garden greens.
     Robyn
     Thanks Robyn, looks like all is not as simple as it seems. Opinions 
seem to vary on
     the best duck breed for slug control.

Indian Runners appeal to me since they
     reputedly (is it true?) don't fly.

I believe thats true.

   2.I would put the ducks in the outermost ring. They will denude the 
soil and be the best patrol
     against the slugs and snails. The chooks shouldn't eat them (can't 
remember why now) and
     their habits of sploshing water everywhere and making a muddy mess 
will not cause the
     chooks any foot damage or illness. ('Course I'll pay to see you 
walking over this quagmire
     during the worst of the winter gales :-))
     Fran
     Cheers, Fran. The problem with duck housing in the outer ring is that 
this would call
     for another detached construction. I do however see the conflict 
between the messy
     ducks and the 'xerophylous' chooks. In any case I will keep the duck 
water outdoors.
     As to the quagmire - Ireland is a sodden place at the best of 
times... Will need good
     paving or gravel path for my own movement through the access section.
   3.Raise the coop on stilts (mine is about a metre off the floor) so 
that they can always have a
     dry dust bath underneath it and to stop the floor rotting.
     Thank you, Lisa. I have thought about this but it would make the 
greenhouse
     integration quite difficult. Also it would mean that the floor must 
be very strong
     (load bearing - my load) and to achieve head height the whole 
construction would he
     higher again, and cast a correspondlingly longer shadow on the veg beds
     W,NW,N,NE,E. Might be easier to provide a semi-closed box for dust 
baths outdoors,
     or would that mean mud-baths?

I agree with jacking it up.  Weld it up on skids even so you can pull it 
around if you need to.  Anchor it to pileings if wind is an issue.

     Make the floor of the coop open or slide out to make it easier to 
clean if you can do the
     whole thing on a good slope you can feed at the top and collect 
manure at the bottom.
     No slope available. Jerome Osentowski has or had such a system and it 
is reported to
     work brilliantly.
     Chickens dont like damp but ducks need a body of water and will hunt 
for it. Chickens
     only eat small slugs but they do eat snail shells if broken up. 
Chickens work well with
     sweetcorn as ruslting through it helps fertilisation - mine is 
underplanted with fenugreek.
     Excellent thought about them rustling the corn. I had Buff Orpingtons 
which ate
     snails whole. I suppose it depends on the size of the birds.

All good stuff IMO.  Set up a water nipple system (Val is my favorite 
brand)  Brood your birds on it .  Try getting the ducks on it too.  Ducks 
make a filthy mess of any standing water the cooks will drink it of course.

     Do you have foxes? you may need to do some serious fencing or get 
some nice violent
     chickens.

     Yes. We do. And dogs. And mink. Where does one get violent chickens? :)

If it's male, it's probably violent.  Look around at poultry swaps, you'll 
fine something.  Many bantams very total psycho and are very nimble.  get a 
low impedance electric fence.


     If its cold in the winter the hens will need shutting in at night.
     It's always cold... at least this summer...

Cold is not as big a deal as wind.  If its really cold (-5 c, 10 f you may 
at to dub the chicks combs or use pea combed variety.

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Mark P. Ludwig
Poultry Research Lab
University of Wisconsin -Madison
608-262-1730 WK
608-846-7125 HM