pcplantdb

["Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@intrex.net>]

Stephanie Gerson wrote:

> -NAME –
> John S. suggested a four-word combination between the two proposed names, 
> such as “Open Permaculture Information Web” or “Open Permaculture Info 
> Web.”  Personally, I’d rather leave it less wordy and go with a 3-word 
> name.  (And like John S., I’m not too into “InfoWeb.”)
>
> Chad writes, “I like them both equally well, but 'Permaculture 
> Information Web' more closely matches the domain name, so I cast my vote 
> for that.”  I agree.
>
> Lawrence suggested that the Open Permaculture Project be “a collaboration 
> of permaculture websites,” and that we stick with some combination of 
> Permaculture, Information, and Web – “Permaculture Informationweb” or 
> “Permaculture Information Web” – for our name.  Sounds fine with me.  
>
> However, I would be wary of a name whose acronym is OPP – are you down 
> with OPP?  Or does that tell you what generation I’m a part of…

Down = ?
For me "up for" = OK by me

Better OPIP, Open Permaculture Information Project

Think "O' Pip" as in the lead character in Dicken's "Great Expectations".

I think we should use this as part of our name and that we should have
a satellite project involving using permaculture.info as a portal to PC info 
sites similar to ours
with us as the umbrella.


> Summary: it seems like people either like both names, or deem 
> “Permaculture Information Web” more appropriate for our project.  So 

Sounds good.

> unless anyone objects (speak now or…), let’s go with “Permaculture 
> Information Web” for hg, and plan that it will be part of the “Open 
> Permaculture Project” (which PFAF, Eden, and Lawrence’s website will 
> hopefully be part of too!) in the future…

> Si?

Absolument. OPIP.

> -ZOPE/IBIBLIO - 
> Damn.  Still not resolved.  But we’re getting there.
>
> John S. wrote, “I'd much prefer we get paid for our work and spend a 
> little bit on hosting than buy someone else an expensive server and get 
> paid little or nothing for our work.”
>
> Chad reiterated his view, writing “I propose that we use the Zope 
> platform to implement HG/permaculture.info starting on arashi.com.  When 
> we have a product available for mainstream use we will either move to 
> ibiblio if Zope is available or purchase hosting services from a 
> commercial provid such as johncompanies.  We will continue to seek out 
> funding to procure a server for ibiblio and/or encourage establishment of 
> a Zope platform at ibiblio and hopefully migrate there before the end of 
> the year.”
>
> And Lawrence wrote, “I'm supportive of whatever you and Rich decide to do 
> as long as the project ends up on ibiblio within a reasonable timeframe 
> (so they can watchdog it and so we will avoid years of server and 
> maintenance costs). A lot of us really want this project to happen and 
> for it to meet everyone's expectations to become a world class PC info 
> resource, as PFAF currently is for plants, and are looking forward to 
> many years of using and supporting it.”
>
> Rich seemed willing to pursue either option, and I’m happy as long as all 

I think I've read everything he has written to this list and it looks like he 
supports
Zope as long as it is on ibiblio (and temporarily on arashi).

> yalls are happy.  But I do agree with Scott that the functionality of the 
> database is critical, and therefore the platform choice is of utmost 
> importance.

I agree with this.

> So, it appears that the most satisfactory compromise is that we go with 
> ZOPE on arashi while I solicit further funding to donate a server for 
> Ibiblio.  That way, we would not be cutting into our wage $, using the 
> platform of choice, and plan to end up on Ibiblio within a reasonable 
> timeframe (how long would the timeframe be, Lawrence?).

However long it takes to put the Zope machine we purchase on ibiblio.
You're not going to get very far on John H.'s machine for lack of space and 
bandwidth
so moving to ibiblio from there as soon as possible is imperative.

> Do all of you agree with this?  And if so, would we want to:
> a) take out a loan from PCU to buy the server now, and pay for it with 
> funds we receive in the future?

YES.

> b) not take out a loan, and wait until we have received further grants/
> donations in or to buy the server?  

Only if PCU will not make us the loan. I imagine they will and I will help 
make payments if necessary.
After all total cost of the machine is only $5000.

> ‡ John S. wrote, “I'll spend the time to find some other possible 
> academic/institutional "free" hosts if/when someone else spends the time 
> to answer my non-trivial questions about the long-term viability of 
> ibiblio.”  Actually, it would be helpful if you could spend this time now 
> – I think Lawrence would gladly answer your questions about the long-term 
> viability of Ibiblio.  I know there are hosts who offer good/free deals 
> to non-profits, such as Laughing Squid.  I’m taking the liberty of adding 
> this to your tasks, John – assigning tasks is a perk of dealing with the 
> project plan, I guess ;)

This is pointless, those other "free" hosts are not out there anyway and any 
that might be are not
of the caliber or permanence of ibiblio. I propose you reassign John S. to 
programming tasks such as
testing and error tracking, things he knows something about.
This is wasting our time going around and around about hosting at a location 
other than ibiblio.
John S. originally suggested our using Zope and now we are probably going to 
use it; now we have to wade through his
complaints about ibiblio and buying a Zope machine. What does he want for 
$.25?
If a decision is made by this group not to permanently host permaculture.info at ibiblio I will drop this project like it was a constipated 
Tasmanian Devil on steroids having a bad hair day. The costs involved in purchasing commercial hosting space
for the long term, considering the storage, maintenance and bandwidth 
requirements we will need, would be considerable.
Years ago on ibiblio my own website got as much as 860,000 hits in a single month; Henriette Kress' herbal website there gets millions per 
month. We would do even better and that represents a significant load on our host.

> ‡ John S. wrote, “Also on hosting - we don't even know if we can host our 
> issue tracker on ibiblio yet, never mind zope!”  Hmm?? 

I think Fred explained this adequately: that John S. can install and run 
Bugzilla
on ibiblio in his own user space, i.e. from his own Linux shell login account.
Of course he will have to ask them to set up that account for him.

> If this is a 
> concern that’s going to seriously affect our ability to use ZOPE or work 
> with Ibiblio, we need to figure this out.  Can you please elaborate?

It is NOT going to affect running Zope on ibiblio at all.

> -$$$ - 
> Congratulations Scott, for successfully completing your first task!  
> Since you did so well, I’m gonna have to give you more…hehee
>
> Everyone, where should Scott send the check?  To my address?  Will I be 
> dealing with the distribution of funds, then?

Pay PI out of grant dollars to do it for us. I vote YES for allocation of 
funds for this purpose.
For handling future grant dollars in any significant amount I think that we, 
not having our own
non profit should hire PI to do this for us, for the long haul.
Would you want to put hundreds of thousands of dollars in your own bank 
account and have
to deal with all the bookeeping, disbursements and other tasks you'd be 
responsible for?

> John S. asked about the $15/hour figure, and seemed (understandably!) 
> displeased.  When I was creating the budget for the grant proposal, I 
> posted messages to the list asking about wages and what would be 
> reasonable.  I think no one responded except for Rich.  I also remember 
> not wanting to spend too much on wages, for fear that it wouldn’t look 
> too good (I decided this after speaking with someone from the Threshold 
> Foundation about budget etiquette).  So, I apologize if you are 
> dissatisfied with the wage.  But.  As I mentioned in a previous post, the 
> Threshold Foundation doesn’t limit how much money can be spent on wages –
> so we can definitely pay more than $15/hour, depending on how we want to 
> allocate our funds (something which we’ll need to discuss further).
>
> And Lawrence wrote, “Definitely, if you can use 100% of the grant for 
> programming wages then, by all means do it. As I said, I will contribute 
> $$ toward wages or computer. Payment of $250 per quarter for two years
> are possible for me, made to the PI (they will absorb $200 for their 
> fee).  If that $250 is better used to make payments on a PCU loan that's 
> OK but still made every 3 months. Donation of this $2200 is contingent on 
> our project being developed and hosted on ibiblio from the start.”  Great 
> ideas, Lawrence, and thank you for your generosity!

I think now we are dealing with getting a Zope machine for ibiblio, so any 
help from me will go toward making that happen.
What I would prefer is to apply for a loan somewhere to buy this machine and 
I will help make payments
or make a down payment or something. Meanwhile we apply for additional grants 
and I get repaid when that happens.
This would be the ideal scenario but not the only one, of course.

> -PROJECT PLAN - 
> Thank you to everyone who gave me updates!  I will revise the task list 
> and send it out tomorrow, along with a list of questions that were raised 
> in this synthesis for you to answer.
>
> A few quick notes:
> ‡ Did the two Johns ever figure out the Bugzilla issue?
>
> ‡ What is our shared web workspace?  Chad assumed it was the wiki, but 
> then criticized wikis’ ability to provide an effective shared workspace.  
> So, do we wish to abandon the wiki then?  (I know I had a hard time using 
> it…)  If so, would we like to use some form of shared web workspace other 
> than this listserv?  Lawrence asked if “a temporary website on ibiblio be 
> of use, as in www.ibiblio.org/pcplantdb or some other name” - would this 
> be a shared web workspace or something else?  

Use the wiki. Lots of others have and its a good solution for collaboration. 
I will set up a better one soon.

> ‡ Chad wrote, “I'm a little nervous working with Rich because I don't 
> think we are really on the same level.  I think we can work together but 
> I think there should be either a clear task delineation or an 
> understanding that our working relationship will not be consensus based 
> and that I will lead the technical direction.”  Chad, I would like you 
> and Rich to discuss these concerns.  Something else I get to add to the 
> task list ;)
>
> ‡ Thanks for taking care of domain transfer, Chad.

I second that.

LL
--
L.F.London
lfl@intrex.net
http://market-farming.com
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech