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  • From: Justin West <cjustinwest@gmail.com>
  • To: nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: [NAFEX] 'Illinois Everbearing' mulberry
  • Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 10:42:43 -0700

I agree with Lee and Hector, very easy grafting mulberry's, if you have experience grafting, that is.   I use whip and tongue.  problem now will be to get some graft wood which has been kept dormant in the fridge, although the stuff in central NY outside might still be dormant.  I am New Jersey, might have some left over 'collier' sticks I could send you in about a week after i graft mine. 
Justin West
NJ
zone 6.5
 

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Today's Topics:

  1. Ambrosia apple tree in Tenn (derry&bill)
  2. 'Illinois Everbearing' mulberry (Melissa Kacalanos)
  3. Re: 'Illinois Everbearing' mulberry (Ernest Plutko)
  4. Re: 'Illinois Everbearing' mulberry (Melissa Kacalanos)
  5. Re: Ambrosia apple tree in Tenn (Douglas Woodard)
  6. Re: 'Illinois Everbearing' mulberry (Douglas Woodard)
  7. Re: 'Illinois Everbearing' mulberry (Lee Reich)
  8. apple preferences of bears (derry&bill)
  9. Re: 'Illinois Everbearing' mulberry (Ernest Plutko)
 10. Re: apple preferences of bears (Dan Nave)
 11. Re: 'Illinois Everbearing' mulberry (Hector Black)
 12. Re: apple preferences of bears (Ginda Fisher)
 13. Re: apple preferences of bears (kk maser)
 14. Re: apple preferences of bears (Douglas Woodard)
 15. Re: apple preferences of bears (kk maser)
 16. Re: apple preferences of bears (hwpark@kahres.kendal.org)
 17. Apple preferences of bears (Jwlehman@aol.com)
 18. Re: Apple preferences of bears (Melissa Kacalanos)
 19. Re: Apple preferences of bears (William C. Garthright)
 20. whortleberry (Vaccinium myrtillus) (Melissa Kacalanos)
 21. Re: Apple preferences of bears (hwpark@kahres.kendal.org)
 22. Deer thwarted (Jim Fruth)
 23. Re: Carmine jewel seeds (Matt Demmon)
 24. Re: Scion wood of apple (Dale Burkholder)
 25. Re: Availability of grafting wood-my tree list for future
     reference (Melissa Kacalanos)
 26. Re: Apple preferences of bears (Ernest Plutko)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2010 11:28:46 -0700
From: derry&bill <wchase@interchange.ubc.ca>
Subject: [NAFEX] Ambrosia apple tree in Tenn
To: nafex <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <4BB8DA5E.6050202@interchange.ubc.ca">4BB8DA5E.6050202@interchange.ubc.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1

Does anyone know where a woman living in Franklin, Tenn, can get an
Ambrosia apple tree?

Thanks,

Derry Walsh
South Coastal B.C.


------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 12:47:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: Melissa Kacalanos <mijwiz@yahoo.com>
Subject: [NAFEX] 'Illinois Everbearing' mulberry
To: North American Fruit Explorers <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <700753.19008.qm@web31915.mail.mud.yahoo.com">700753.19008.qm@web31915.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

We bought an 'Illinois Everbearing' mulberry from Raintree last year, and a deer promptly ate much of it the moment we planted it, before we had time to protect it. It then sent out a lot of sprouts in a bushy sort of way. I think it's grafted, rather than on its own roots. I can't really tell, but I suspect that the only live part that's left is sprouting from the rootstock.

We could just remove the whole thing and buy another grafted tree, or I could take this as an invitation to experiment, obtain some scionwood, and try to graft it myself. Any opinions, advice, or offers of scionwood?

Melissa
Zone 5, central NY, where all the buds are swelling and starting to pop open, except for my 'Black Velvet' gooseberry, which has fully-expanded leaves like it's summer.






------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 15:05:46 -0500
From: "Ernest Plutko" <ernestplutko@wiktel.com>
Subject: Re: [NAFEX] 'Illinois Everbearing' mulberry
To: nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <380-2201040420546875@wiktel.com">380-2201040420546875@wiktel.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Put an electric fence around it.

---- Original Message ----
From: mijwiz@yahoo.com
To: nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: RE: [NAFEX] 'Illinois Everbearing' mulberry
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 12:47:22 -0700 (PDT)

>We bought an 'Illinois Everbearing' mulberry from Raintree last year,
>and a deer promptly ate much of it the moment we planted it, before
>we had time to protect it. It then sent out a lot of sprouts in a
>bushy sort of way. I think it's grafted, rather than on its own
>roots. I can't really tell, but I suspect that the only live part
>that's left is sprouting from the rootstock.
>
>We could just remove the whole thing and buy another grafted tree, or
>I could take this as an invitation to experiment, obtain some
>scionwood, and try to graft it myself. Any opinions, advice, or
>offers of scionwood?
>
>Melissa
>Zone 5, central NY, where all the buds are swelling and starting to
>pop open, except for my 'Black Velvet' gooseberry, which has
>fully-expanded leaves like it's summer.
>
>
>
>
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------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 13:21:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: Melissa Kacalanos <mijwiz@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [NAFEX] 'Illinois Everbearing' mulberry
To: North American Fruit Explorers <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <548439.92120.qm@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com">548439.92120.qm@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Our chicken-wire fences work fine, once we put them up, and they worked on our other trees. But these deer literally will eat a newly-planted tree if you turn your back for the time it takes to go get a piece of fencing.

The only question is, should we buy a whole new grafted tree, or try to graft something on to the rootstock we have?

Melissa

--- On Sun, 4/4/10, Ernest Plutko <ernestplutko@wiktel.com> wrote:

> From: Ernest Plutko <ernestplutko@wiktel.com>
> Subject: Re: [NAFEX] 'Illinois Everbearing' mulberry
> To: nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
> Date: Sunday, April 4, 2010, 4:05 PM
> Put an electric fence around it.
>
> ---- Original Message ----
> From: mijwiz@yahoo.com
> To: nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: RE: [NAFEX] 'Illinois Everbearing' mulberry
> Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 12:47:22 -0700 (PDT)
>
> >We bought an 'Illinois Everbearing' mulberry from
> Raintree last year,
> >and a deer promptly ate much of it the moment we
> planted it, before
> >we had time to protect it. It then sent out a lot of
> sprouts in a
> >bushy sort of way. I think it's grafted, rather than on
> its own
> >roots. I can't really tell, but I suspect that the only
> live part
> >that's left is sprouting from the rootstock.
> >
> >We could just remove the whole thing and buy another
> grafted tree, or
> >I could take this as an invitation to experiment,
> obtain some
> >scionwood, and try to graft it myself. Any opinions,
> advice, or
> >offers of scionwood?
> >
> >Melissa
> >Zone 5, central NY
>





------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2010 17:14:21 -0400
From: Douglas Woodard <dwoodard@becon.org>
Subject: Re: [NAFEX] Ambrosia apple tree in Tenn
To: North American Fruit Explorers <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <4BB9012D.6010608@becon.org">4BB9012D.6010608@becon.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

I notice that Willow Drive Nursery in Washington sells it; they seem not
to sell single trees (maybe bundles of 25), and they state that

"Ambrosia is a controlled variety in the U.S. and may only be purchased
through proper approval."
http://www.willowdrive.com

The licensee, Okanagan Plant Improvement Corporation say "Growers are
urged to contact PICO when deciding to plant this variety;" apparently
it is not the easiest to grow.
http://www.picocorp.com

Your customer might be better off anyway with one of the high quality
cultivars that do well for home growers in continental climates, maybe
Kidd's Orange Red? Does anyone in Tennessee or nearby have any
experience with Rubinette (also Cox ancestry)? I read that it does well
in California.

If your inquirer could tell you how important the high flavour of
Ambrosia is to her versus the texture and sweetness/lack of acidity,
maybe members in Tennessee or thereabouts could make suggestions.

Feel free to use this post as you like.

Doug Woodard
St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada


derry&bill wrote:
> Does anyone know where a woman living in Franklin, Tenn, can get an
> Ambrosia apple tree?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Derry Walsh
> South Coastal B.C.


------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2010 17:23:19 -0400
From: Douglas Woodard <dwoodard@becon.org>
Subject: Re: [NAFEX] 'Illinois Everbearing' mulberry
To: North American Fruit Explorers <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <4BB90347.40904@becon.org">4BB90347.40904@becon.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

I worked for a nursery for a while about 25 years ago and I noticed that
when they grafted ornamental weeping muberries they grafted plants in
pots in a greenhouse and kept the temperature very hot for some time.
Could any knowledgeable members advise whether this is required when
grafting mulberries?

Doug Woodard
St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada


Melissa Kacalanos wrote:
> Our chicken-wire fences work fine, once we put them up, and they worked on our other trees. But these deer literally will eat a newly-planted tree if you turn your back for the time it takes to go get a piece of fencing.
>
> The only question is, should we buy a whole new grafted tree, or try to graft something on to the rootstock we have?
>
> Melissa

[snip]


------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 17:40:32 -0400
From: Lee Reich <lreich@hvc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [NAFEX] 'Illinois Everbearing' mulberry
To: North American Fruit Explorers <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <13B7BBE4-FDD8-4A1A-B55E-5050FB565FCC@hvc.rr.com">13B7BBE4-FDD8-4A1A-B55E-5050FB565FCC@hvc.rr.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I've whip grafted Ilinois Everbearing on wild mulberry rootstocks many
times, successfully. It's easy.

Lee Reich, PhD
http://www.leereich.com/
http://leereich.com/blog.html.

Books by Lee Reich:
A Northeast Gardener's Year
The Pruning Book
Weedless Gardening
Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden
Landscaping with Fruit






On Apr 4, 2010, at 5:23 PM, Douglas Woodard wrote:

> I worked for a nursery for a while about 25 years ago and I noticed
> that
> when they grafted ornamental weeping muberries they grafted plants in
> pots in a greenhouse and kept the temperature very hot for some time.
> Could any knowledgeable members advise whether this is required when
> grafting mulberries?
>
> Doug Woodard
> St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada
>
>
> Melissa Kacalanos wrote:
>> Our chicken-wire fences work fine, once we put them up, and they
>> worked on our other trees. But these deer literally will eat a
>> newly-planted tree if you turn your back for the time it takes to
>> go get a piece of fencing.
>>
>> The only question is, should we buy a whole new grafted tree, or
>> try to graft something on to the rootstock we have?
>>
>> Melissa
>
> [snip]
> _______________________________________________
> nafex mailing list
> nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
>
> Reproduction of list messages or archives is not allowed.
> This includes distribution on other email lists or reproduction on
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Message: 8
Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2010 14:45:34 -0700
From: derry&bill <wchase@interchange.ubc.ca>
Subject: [NAFEX] apple preferences of bears
To: nafex <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <4BB9087E.5050805@interchange.ubc.ca">4BB9087E.5050805@interchange.ubc.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1

Does anyone know of any research done on whether bears prefer red or
green apples or sweet or sour apples?

I know about choosing varieties which ripen early ... ideally before the
bears come down the mountains.

Derry Walsh
with customers in bear country.


------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 17:00:58 -0500
From: "Ernest Plutko" <ernestplutko@wiktel.com>
Subject: Re: [NAFEX] 'Illinois Everbearing' mulberry
To: nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <380-2201040422058671@wiktel.com">380-2201040422058671@wiktel.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Easy solution.  Put a fence up when you plant tree.  Don't turn you
back.

---- Original Message ----
From: mijwiz@yahoo.com
To: nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [NAFEX] 'Illinois Everbearing' mulberry
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 13:21:02 -0700 (PDT)

>Our chicken-wire fences work fine, once we put them up, and they
>worked on our other trees. But these deer literally will eat a
>newly-planted tree if you turn your back for the time it takes to go
>get a piece of fencing.
>
>The only question is, should we buy a whole new grafted tree, or try
>to graft something on to the rootstock we have?
>
>Melissa
>
>--- On Sun, 4/4/10, Ernest Plutko <ernestplutko@wiktel.com> wrote:
>
>> From: Ernest Plutko <ernestplutko@wiktel.com>
>> Subject: Re: [NAFEX] 'Illinois Everbearing' mulberry
>> To: nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
>> Date: Sunday, April 4, 2010, 4:05 PM
>> Put an electric fence around it.
>>
>> ---- Original Message ----
>> From: mijwiz@yahoo.com
>> To: nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
>> Subject: RE: [NAFEX] 'Illinois Everbearing' mulberry
>> Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 12:47:22 -0700 (PDT)
>>
>> >We bought an 'Illinois Everbearing' mulberry from
>> Raintree last year,
>> >and a deer promptly ate much of it the moment we
>> planted it, before
>> >we had time to protect it. It then sent out a lot of
>> sprouts in a
>> >bushy sort of way. I think it's grafted, rather than on
>> its own
>> >roots. I can't really tell, but I suspect that the only
>> live part
>> >that's left is sprouting from the rootstock.
>> >
>> >We could just remove the whole thing and buy another
>> grafted tree, or
>> >I could take this as an invitation to experiment,
>> obtain some
>> >scionwood, and try to graft it myself. Any opinions,
>> advice, or
>> >offers of scionwood?
>> >
>> >Melissa
>> >Zone 5, central NY
>>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>nafex mailing list
>nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
>
>Reproduction of list messages or archives is not allowed.
>This includes distribution on other email lists or reproduction on
>web sites.
>Permission to reproduce is NEVER granted, so don't claim you have
>permission!
>
>**YOU MUST BE SUBSCRIBED TO POST!**
>Posts from email addresses that are not subscribed are discarded.
>No exceptions.
>----
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------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2010 17:10:11 -0500
From: Dan Nave <nave1@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [NAFEX] apple preferences of bears
To: North American Fruit Explorers <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <4BB90E43.1070107@comcast.net">4BB90E43.1070107@comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Several years ago I stayed for a short time at a house on the lower
slopes of Mount Whitney just outside of Lone Pine, California.  There
was a semi-wild apple orchard on the property and nearly all the trees
were filled with pretty, ripe-looking apples, although not all were
palatable.  I went thru the orchard picking apples to eat off of many
trees.  The trees with the sweetest and tastiest apples all had bear
claw marks on the bark where bears had climbed up into the tree,
presumably for the apples.  So, I would say that they like the sweet
apples...

Dan

derry&bill wrote:
> Does anyone know of any research done on whether bears prefer red or
> green apples or sweet or sour apples?
>
> I know about choosing varieties which ripen early ... ideally before the
> bears come down the mountains.
>
> Derry Walsh
> with customers in bear country.
> _______________________________________________
> nafex mailing list
> nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
>
> Reproduction of list messages or archives is not allowed.
> This includes distribution on other email lists or reproduction on web sites.
> Permission to reproduce is NEVER granted, so don't claim you have permission!
>
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> Posts from email addresses that are not subscribed are discarded.
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------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 17:18:56 -0500
From: "Hector Black" <hblack1925@fastmail.fm>
Subject: Re: [NAFEX] 'Illinois Everbearing' mulberry
To: "North American Fruit Explorers" <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <EDE0FFEFD98545678A41BB8EF77EAA5D@hectordesktop>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
       reply-type=original

I've used whip and tongue and cleft graft putting Ill. Evergearing on white
mulberry stock.
Both successful just when the buds begin to swell.  I used scionwood that
was gathered when the tree was dormant kept that in the frig and grafted
outside in the field in April here in middle TN    Hector Black
  One caution on Ill. Everbearing - It's a wonderful fruit but the branches
tend to be brittle and when long, they tend to crack in strong winds or when
being climbed too far out on a limb. The branches sweep down to the ground
so little kids love them, come in with purple juice streaming down their
chins.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Woodard" <dwoodard@becon.org>
To: "North American Fruit Explorers" <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 4:23 PM
Subject: Re: [NAFEX] 'Illinois Everbearing' mulberry


>I worked for a nursery for a while about 25 years ago and I noticed that
> when they grafted ornamental weeping muberries they grafted plants in
> pots in a greenhouse and kept the temperature very hot for some time.
> Could any knowledgeable members advise whether this is required when
> grafting mulberries?
>
> Doug Woodard
> St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada
>
>
> Melissa Kacalanos wrote:
>> Our chicken-wire fences work fine, once we put them up, and they worked
>> on our other trees. But these deer literally will eat a newly-planted
>> tree if you turn your back for the time it takes to go get a piece of
>> fencing.
>>
>> The only question is, should we buy a whole new grafted tree, or try to
>> graft something on to the rootstock we have?
>>
>> Melissa
>
> [snip]
> _______________________________________________
> nafex mailing list
> nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
>
> Reproduction of list messages or archives is not allowed.
> This includes distribution on other email lists or reproduction on web
> sites.
> Permission to reproduce is NEVER granted, so don't claim you have
> permission!
>
> **YOU MUST BE SUBSCRIBED TO POST!**
> Posts from email addresses that are not subscribed are discarded.
> No exceptions.
> ----
> To subscribe or unsubscribe, go to the bottom of this page (also can be
> used to change other email options):
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>
> File attachments are NOT stripped by this list.
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> Please do not send binary files.
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> NAFEX web site:   http://www.nafex.org/
>



------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 18:25:23 -0400
From: Ginda Fisher <list@ginda.us>
Subject: Re: [NAFEX] apple preferences of bears
To: North American Fruit Explorers <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <F3C8956D-92F6-4AE3-BF61-EE99E65151E0@ginda.us">F3C8956D-92F6-4AE3-BF61-EE99E65151E0@ginda.us>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

In my backyard, deer also prefer sweet apples.  They prefer the twigs of apples trees that have sweet fruit, too.

Ginda


On Apr 4, 2010, at 6:10 PM, Dan Nave wrote:

> Several years ago I stayed for a short time at a house on the lower slopes of Mount Whitney just outside of Lone Pine, California.  There was a semi-wild apple orchard on the property and nearly all the trees were filled with pretty, ripe-looking apples, although not all were palatable.  I went thru the orchard picking apples to eat off of many trees.  The trees with the sweetest and tastiest apples all had bear claw marks on the bark where bears had climbed up into the tree, presumably for the apples.  So, I would say that they like the sweet apples...
>
> Dan
>
> derry&bill wrote:
>>
>> Does anyone know of any research done on whether bears prefer red or
>> green apples or sweet or sour apples?
>>
>> I know about choosing varieties which ripen early ... ideally before the
>> bears come down the mountains.
>>
>> Derry Walsh
>> with customers in bear country.
>> _______________________________________________
>> nafex mailing list
>> nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
>>
>> Reproduction of list messages or archives is not allowed.
>> This includes distribution on other email lists or reproduction on web sites.
>> Permission to reproduce is NEVER granted, so don't claim you have permission!
>>
>> **YOU MUST BE SUBSCRIBED TO POST!**
>> Posts from email addresses that are not subscribed are discarded.
>> No exceptions.
>> ----
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe, go to the bottom of this page (also can be used to change other email options):
>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex
>>
>> File attachments are NOT stripped by this list.
>> TAKE STEPS TO PROTECT YOURSELF FROM COMPUTER VIRUSES!
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Message: 13
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 19:44:03 -0600
From: kk maser <maser.fruitcrops@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [NAFEX] apple preferences of bears
To: North American Fruit Explorers <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID:
       <g2u410855e21004041844n1398a0b4l1071e8ce755dd3d1@mail.gmail.com">g2u410855e21004041844n1398a0b4l1071e8ce755dd3d1@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Derry. Bears will eat anything that is available. If it's ripe they will eat
it. When I was in the Okanagan bears would eat grapes, bears or apples.
Color really didn't matter if it was ripe it was fair game. The bears were
quite habitual and seem to know when the fruit was available. Even if the
season varied by a couple of weeks they would show up. They usually went for
the outside rows. They like to come in at dusk. Usually we reserved a few
rows for them. If you want to scare the "bejusus"(excuse my newfinese ) out
of them bear bangers or shooting off a shotgun will keep them away. They
really like the later season more sugar in the fruit gives them the energy
they need for winter hibernation.

Cheers

Kim

On Sun, Apr 4, 2010 at 3:45 PM, derry&bill <wchase@interchange.ubc.ca>wrote:

> Does anyone know of any research done on whether bears prefer red or
> green apples or sweet or sour apples?
>
> I know about choosing varieties which ripen early ... ideally before the
> bears come down the mountains.
>
> Derry Walsh
> with customers in bear country.
> _______________________________________________
> nafex mailing list
> nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
>
> Reproduction of list messages or archives is not allowed.
> This includes distribution on other email lists or reproduction on web
> sites.
> Permission to reproduce is NEVER granted, so don't claim you have
> permission!
>
> **YOU MUST BE SUBSCRIBED TO POST!**
> Posts from email addresses that are not subscribed are discarded.
> No exceptions.
> ----
> To subscribe or unsubscribe, go to the bottom of this page (also can be
> used to change other email options):
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Message: 14
Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2010 22:10:31 -0400
From: Douglas Woodard <dwoodard@becon.org>
Subject: Re: [NAFEX] apple preferences of bears
To: North American Fruit Explorers <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <4BB94697.9080907@becon.org">4BB94697.9080907@becon.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

My guess would be that bears use their noses to judge ripeness and are
better equipped than us to judge fruit quality before tasting. Also at
the later season probably there are fewer alternatives to human planted
fruit crops. To quote one of David Suzuki's lines, it's a matter of
survival.

Kim, are they destructive of grapevines and dwarf trees whose fruit they
can reach from the ground, or do they only damage trees they have to climb?

Doug Woodard
St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada



kk maser wrote:
> Derry. Bears will eat anything that is available. If it's ripe they will
> eat it. When I was in the Okanagan bears would eat grapes, bears or
> apples. Color really didn't matter if it was ripe it was fair game. The
> bears were quite habitual and seem to know when the fruit was available.
> Even if the season varied by a couple of weeks they would show up. They
> usually went for the outside rows. They like to come in at dusk. Usually
> we reserved a few rows for them. If you want to scare the
> "bejusus"(excuse my newfinese ) out of them bear bangers or shooting off
> a shotgun will keep them away. They really like the later season more
> sugar in the fruit gives them the energy they need for winter hibernation.
>
> Cheers
>
> Kim
>
> On Sun, Apr 4, 2010 at 3:45 PM, derry&bill <wchase@interchange.ubc.ca
> <mailto:wchase@interchange.ubc.ca>> wrote:
>
>     Does anyone know of any research done on whether bears prefer red or
>     green apples or sweet or sour apples?
>
>     I know about choosing varieties which ripen early ... ideally before the
>     bears come down the mountains.
>
>     Derry Walsh
>     with customers in bear country.


------------------------------

Message: 15
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 21:12:02 -0600
From: kk maser <maser.fruitcrops@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [NAFEX] apple preferences of bears
To: North American Fruit Explorers <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID:
       <q2q410855e21004042012n9e3c421cnd9dabd3af5c48afb@mail.gmail.com">q2q410855e21004042012n9e3c421cnd9dabd3af5c48afb@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Doug; They usually go for the fruit that is easiest to get at. So dwarf
fruits/ or grape vines are like salad. Bigger trees suffer damage on the
lower limbs. Bears aren't like starlings or deer wthat can inflict major
damage on crops. Bears will come feed then leave. On a big commercial scale
like orchards or vineyards the amount of damage they inflict isn't that
major.
Deer do far more damage on fruit trees ie. growth or starlings do far more
damage on grapes than a single bear will inflict.
In a small planting the damage would be more substantial. Most commercial
growers will let  the bears have a meal. The amount of damge a bear does to
a vineyard is far less then a flock of starlings. I gues it really comes
down to how much damage you are willing to sustain. Most of the growers i
know let them have their feed and leave them alone. We had a female bear and
cubs come every year  to my neighbors vineyard. They would feed on the first
4 or 5 rows -stuff themselves and leave. The amount of damage they did was
really quite small compared to what a flock of starlings could do in half an
hour. The biggest problem you had with bears is human confrontation. If you
scare them you can usually solve the problem.

Cheers

Kim

On Sun, Apr 4, 2010 at 8:10 PM, Douglas Woodard <dwoodard@becon.org> wrote:

> My guess would be that bears use their noses to judge ripeness and are
> better equipped than us to judge fruit quality before tasting. Also at
> the later season probably there are fewer alternatives to human planted
> fruit crops. To quote one of David Suzuki's lines, it's a matter of
> survival.
>
> Kim, are they destructive of grapevines and dwarf trees whose fruit they
> can reach from the ground, or do they only damage trees they have to climb?
>
> Doug Woodard
> St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada
>
>
>
> kk maser wrote:
> > Derry. Bears will eat anything that is available. If it's ripe they will
> > eat it. When I was in the Okanagan bears would eat grapes, bears or
> > apples. Color really didn't matter if it was ripe it was fair game. The
> > bears were quite habitual and seem to know when the fruit was available.
> > Even if the season varied by a couple of weeks they would show up. They
> > usually went for the outside rows. They like to come in at dusk. Usually
> > we reserved a few rows for them. If you want to scare the
> > "bejusus"(excuse my newfinese ) out of them bear bangers or shooting off
> > a shotgun will keep them away. They really like the later season more
> > sugar in the fruit gives them the energy they need for winter
> hibernation.
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Kim
> >
> > On Sun, Apr 4, 2010 at 3:45 PM, derry&bill <wchase@interchange.ubc.ca
> > <mailto:wchase@interchange.ubc.ca>> wrote:
> >
> >     Does anyone know of any research done on whether bears prefer red or
> >     green apples or sweet or sour apples?
> >
> >     I know about choosing varieties which ripen early ... ideally before
> the
> >     bears come down the mountains.
> >
> >     Derry Walsh
> >     with customers in bear country.
> _______________________________________________
> nafex mailing list
> nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
>
> Reproduction of list messages or archives is not allowed.
> This includes distribution on other email lists or reproduction on web
> sites.
> Permission to reproduce is NEVER granted, so don't claim you have
> permission!
>
> **YOU MUST BE SUBSCRIBED TO POST!**
> Posts from email addresses that are not subscribed are discarded.
> No exceptions.
> ----
> To subscribe or unsubscribe, go to the bottom of this page (also can be
> used to change other email options):
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Message: 16
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 07:30:50 -0400
From: hwpark@kahres.kendal.org
Subject: Re: [NAFEX] apple preferences of bears
To: North American Fruit Explorers <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <173B2312-730D-41F4-9DB2-D9B0EC35CFD8@kahres.kendal.org">173B2312-730D-41F4-9DB2-D9B0EC35CFD8@kahres.kendal.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Bears need food to survive, so it depends where I live on what is available. In good mast years, they hardly bother my orchard; when food is sparse they will visit what ever is growing.  One year they made an apple tree into a telephone pole  by stripping off many limbs to get the fruit. This past year the bears and deer didn't clean up the drops as they usually do, which in the past has been a help.

Hank Parker
zone 4, NH elev 1600

On Apr 4, 2010, at 11:12 PM, kk maser wrote:

> Doug; They usually go for the fruit that is easiest to get at. So dwarf fruits/ or grape vines are like salad. Bigger trees suffer damage on the lower limbs. Bears aren't like starlings or deer wthat can inflict major damage on crops. Bears will come feed then leave. On a big commercial scale like orchards or vineyards the amount of damage they inflict isn't that major.
> Deer do far more damage on fruit trees ie. growth or starlings do far more damage on grapes than a single bear will inflict.
> In a small planting the damage would be more substantial. Most commercial growers will let  the bears have a meal. The amount of damge a bear does to a vineyard is far less then a flock of starlings. I gues it really comes down to how much damage you are willing to sustain. Most of the growers i know let them have their feed and leave them alone. We had a female bear and cubs come every year  to my neighbors vineyard. They would feed on the first 4 or 5 rows -stuff themselves and leave. The amount of damage they did was really quite small compared to what a flock of starlings could do in half an hour. The biggest problem you had with bears is human confrontation. If you scare them you can usually solve the problem.
>
> Cheers
>
> Kim
>
> On Sun, Apr 4, 2010 at 8:10 PM, Douglas Woodard <dwoodard@becon.org> wrote:
> My guess would be that bears use their noses to judge ripeness and are
> better equipped than us to judge fruit quality before tasting. Also at
> the later season probably there are fewer alternatives to human planted
> fruit crops. To quote one of David Suzuki's lines, it's a matter of
> survival.
>
> Kim, are they destructive of grapevines and dwarf trees whose fruit they
> can reach from the ground, or do they only damage trees they have to climb?
>
> Doug Woodard
> St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada
>
>
>
> kk maser wrote:
> > Derry. Bears will eat anything that is available. If it's ripe they will
> > eat it. When I was in the Okanagan bears would eat grapes, bears or
> > apples. Color really didn't matter if it was ripe it was fair game. The
> > bears were quite habitual and seem to know when the fruit was available.
> > Even if the season varied by a couple of weeks they would show up. They
> > usually went for the outside rows. They like to come in at dusk. Usually
> > we reserved a few rows for them. If you want to scare the
> > "bejusus"(excuse my newfinese ) out of them bear bangers or shooting off
> > a shotgun will keep them away. They really like the later season more
> > sugar in the fruit gives them the energy they need for winter hibernation.
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Kim
> >
> > On Sun, Apr 4, 2010 at 3:45 PM, derry&bill <wchase@interchange.ubc.ca
> > <mailto:wchase@interchange.ubc.ca>> wrote:
> >
> >     Does anyone know of any research done on whether bears prefer red or
> >     green apples or sweet or sour apples?
> >
> >     I know about choosing varieties which ripen early ... ideally before the
> >     bears come down the mountains.
> >
> >     Derry Walsh
> >     with customers in bear country.
> _______________________________________________
> nafex mailing list
> nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
>
> Reproduction of list messages or archives is not allowed.
> This includes distribution on other email lists or reproduction on web sites.
> Permission to reproduce is NEVER granted, so don't claim you have permission!
>
> **YOU MUST BE SUBSCRIBED TO POST!**
> Posts from email addresses that are not subscribed are discarded.
> No exceptions.
> ----
> To subscribe or unsubscribe, go to the bottom of this page (also can be used to change other email options):
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>
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> ----
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Message: 17
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 07:53:47 EDT
From: Jwlehman@aol.com
Subject: [NAFEX] Apple preferences of bears
To: nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <26bf9.186e64d1.38eb294b@aol.com">26bf9.186e64d1.38eb294b@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"


I really feel sorry for those of you who must live with bears. They have to
be the absoulout worst wildlife problem for fruit growers. They aren't in
this area yet, but if I see one here it will be a dead bear!  Good luck!

OK PETA, have at me.

Jerry
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Message: 18
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 06:44:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Melissa Kacalanos <mijwiz@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [NAFEX] Apple preferences of bears
To: North American Fruit Explorers <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <584747.12139.qm@web31911.mail.mud.yahoo.com">584747.12139.qm@web31911.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

>From what I've read, I think elephants are worse than bears. They eat entire trees, not just the fruit.

What we really need around here are wolves or mountain lions to thin out these deer.

Melissa

--- On Mon, 4/5/10, Jwlehman@aol.com <Jwlehman@aol.com> wrote:

From: Jwlehman@aol.com <Jwlehman@aol.com>
Subject: [NAFEX] Apple preferences of bears
To: nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
Date: Monday, April 5, 2010, 7:53 AM



I really feel sorry for those of you who must live with bears. They have to be the absoulout worst wildlife problem for fruit growers. They aren't in this area yet, but if I see one here it will be a dead bear!? Good luck!?



OK PETA, have at me.



Jerry






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Message: 19
Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2010 09:08:14 -0500
From: "William C. Garthright" <billg@inebraska.com>
Subject: Re: [NAFEX] Apple preferences of bears
To: North American Fruit Explorers <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <4BB9EECE.3020508@inebraska.com">4BB9EECE.3020508@inebraska.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed


> From what I've read, I think elephants are worse than bears. They eat
> entire trees, not just the fruit.
>


Heh, heh. Yeah, that sounds like a much worse problem, Melissa!

I was wondering about bears being the "absolute worst wildlife problem."
It sounds like they can be scared off pretty easily. And they aren't
nearly as abundant as deer or squirrels or most problems fruit-growers
deal with (as we set up a buffet lunch and then expect no guests to arrive).

But elephants, yeah, they might be a problem. I don't know if they scare
off very easily, do they? My netting and chicken wire wouldn't help
much, I imagine. And I'd probably have to get a more powerful electric
fence than the one I use to keep squirrels at bay.

Hmm,... now that I think of it, tigers might be the "absolute worst
wildlife problem," since then I probably wouldn't dare to leave the house!

:-)

Bill
Lincoln, NE (zone 5)

http://garthright.blogspot.com/

--
It's only when the tide goes out that you discover who's been swimming
naked. - Warren Buffett


------------------------------

Message: 20
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 07:16:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: Melissa Kacalanos <mijwiz@yahoo.com>
Subject: [NAFEX] whortleberry (Vaccinium myrtillus)
To: North American Fruit Explorers <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <154941.43066.qm@web31907.mail.mud.yahoo.com">154941.43066.qm@web31907.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

We planted some blueberries and lingonberries last year, and they did great. We apparently got the acidity right. My husband is so encouraged by this success that now he wants us to try whortleberries, Vaccinium myrtillus. He wants these because he got a very tasty jar of whortleberry jam imported from France.

By googling around, I see that practically every species in the Vaccinium genus is called "whortleberry" by someone, so I don't really know what species was in this jar. I'm assuming it was V. myrtillus, because it grows in France. Also, the jam was almost black, and V. myrtillus is dark blue or purple all the way through, not just on the skin like blueberries. Hence one of their common names, "Black-hearts." That sounds really cool anyway, and it's probably full of antioxidants.

But is anyone selling V. myrtillus plants? I see a few places selling seeds, but plants would be faster. This place lists plants:
http://www.nwplants.com/plants/shrubs/vac_index.html
with no price, and it's hard to tell if the nursery is still in business. They might just be too busy to update their website I suppose. I emailed them yesterday and got no reply.

Hartmann's is selling a plant they're calling 'Eagle' Bilberry, but their paper catalog says it's a V. uliginosum, not V. myrtillus. I'm sure V. uliginosum is tasty too, but I read that it's white inside, not dark purple like V. myrtillus.

Melissa





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Message: 21
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 10:26:11 -0400
From: hwpark@kahres.kendal.org
Subject: Re: [NAFEX] Apple preferences of bears
To: North American Fruit Explorers <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <978DE5FF-538B-4251-BE00-D9E9BFEC21E8@kahres.kendal.org">978DE5FF-538B-4251-BE00-D9E9BFEC21E8@kahres.kendal.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Melissa,

We do have mountain lions in our area of NH, but not yet enough to do much to the deer and bear population yet.

Hank parker
zone 4, elev 1600 ft, NH

On Apr 5, 2010, at 9:44 AM, Melissa Kacalanos wrote:

> From what I've read, I think elephants are worse than bears. They eat entire trees, not just the fruit.
>
> What we really need around here are wolves or mountain lions to thin out these deer.
>
> Melissa
>
> --- On Mon, 4/5/10, Jwlehman@aol.com <Jwlehman@aol.com> wrote:
>
> From: Jwlehman@aol.com <Jwlehman@aol.com>
> Subject: [NAFEX] Apple preferences of bears
> To: nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
> Date: Monday, April 5, 2010, 7:53 AM
>
>
> I really feel sorry for those of you who must live with bears. They have to be the absoulout worst wildlife problem for fruit growers. They aren't in this area yet, but if I see one here it will be a dead bear!  Good luck!
>
> OK PETA, have at me.
>
> Jerry
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nafex mailing list
> nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
>
> Reproduction of list messages or archives is not allowed.
> This includes distribution on other email lists or reproduction on web sites.
> Permission to reproduce is NEVER granted, so don't claim you have permission!
>
> **YOU MUST BE SUBSCRIBED TO POST!**
> Posts from email addresses that are not subscribed are discarded.
> No exceptions.
> ----
> To subscribe or unsubscribe, go to the bottom of this page (also can be used to change other email options):
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Message: 22
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 09:41:03 -0500
From: "Jim Fruth" <jimfruth@charter.net>
Subject: [NAFEX] Deer thwarted
To: "NAFEX" <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <E3D92A13BB154F80ABFE25A9E8813754@ibma20plaptop>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
       reply-type=original

   Every Winter, the deer wander through my orchard to munch on my young
Mantet Apple tree and chomp on the blueberry bushes but not this year.  This
year, I put bird netting over the Mantet and the blueberries.  There were
lots of deer tracks in the snow around them but no deer damage.

Jim Fruth
Brambleberry Farm Market
P.O. Box 799
Pequot Lakes, MN  56472
www.BrambleBerryFarmMarket.com
Jams, Jellies, Syrups & more
1-877-265-6856 (Toll Free)
1-218-831-7018 (My Cell)



------------------------------

Message: 23
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 10:49:23 -0400
From: Matt Demmon <mdemmon@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [NAFEX] Carmine jewel seeds
To: North American Fruit Explorers <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID:
       <w2wab99ebde1004050749q669a27b7na7ddc0aa8c1606c6@mail.gmail.com">w2wab99ebde1004050749q669a27b7na7ddc0aa8c1606c6@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Hi Scott! I'm near Whitmore Lake, or more specifically, 6 miles north
of Ann Arbor in Northfield Township.

Well, so far, the cherry seedlings are only about 4 inches high. I
just germinated them this spring, so I don't know what they're going
to turn out like. I am interested in the amount of variation in the
leaf shape so far, which is high, from rounded to longer with a
distinct point, and teeth from finer and sharper to coarser and more
rounded.

I got the seeds from Sarah Ewing, on the list. Thanks Sarah! And for
the honeyberry seeds as well.

Thanks Melissa for the correction, my bad on the interspecific mistake
due to typing faster than I can think.

As for what I hope to get out of them, I would think I will get
something similar to the parents. My understanding is that these have
been bred for a few generations, and while not exactly stable, I would
at least expect to get decently sized and tasting fruit on a more or
less small tree/bush, with some variation in all the characters. I
hope I don't get a big tree with awful tasting fruit.

Hope to report more in future years!

On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 8:13 PM, S & E Hills <ehills7408@wowway.com> wrote:
> Matt, where in SE michigan are ya?
>
> What did the carmine Jewell cherry seeds you grew grow into (and please
> don't say cherry trees/bushes)? ?Have they fruited for you?
>
> Lastly, where did you (and Ernest) get the seeds from?
>
> Scott Hills
> Zone 6b michigan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nafex-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
> [mailto:nafex-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Matt Demmon
> Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 9:39 AM
> To: North American Fruit Explorers
> Subject: Re: [NAFEX] Carmine jewel seeds
>
> Ernest, mine germinated after 3-4 months of cold after moving to a 60
> degree environment. Some were even germinating in the fridge, however
> others took several weeks to a month to germinate after being moved to
> warmth. Also, the germination rate was not high. Perhaps they are not
> terribly fertile because of their origin as intergeneric hybrids. So
> far I'd say I've got about 25% germ.
>
> I'd like to report that my honeyberry seeds are now germinating en
> masse. hundreds of them, germinating after about 3 months cold, 1
> month warm. I'm curious to experiment with fresh seed.
>
> -matt
> z5 se MI
>
> On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 7:39 PM, Ernest Plutko <ernestplutko@wiktel.com>
> wrote:
>> I'm having trouble germinating Carmine jewel seeds. ?They don't want
>> to germinate after four months cold stratification. ? Some rotted but
>> I think they were damaged when I got them. ? Help, what to do?
>>
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>
>
>
> --
> -matt demmon
> _______________________________________________
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>



--
-matt demmon


------------------------------

Message: 24
Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2010 10:41:43 -0400
From: Dale Burkholder <dburk@planetcomm.net>
Subject: Re: [NAFEX] Scion wood of apple
To: North American Fruit Explorers <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <6.0.1.1.1.20100405101657.01b7b240@mail.planetcomm.net">6.0.1.1.1.20100405101657.01b7b240@mail.planetcomm.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I'd be glad for some of the following if still available:
Secor
Shizuka
Hokuto
Red June
Mollies Delicious

Thanks,
Dale Burkholder
4295 Friedens Church Road
Mt. Crawford  VA 22841




At 10:22 AM 4/4/2010, you wrote:
>The Indiana Nut Growers annual scion swap was last Sunday. I brought home
>wood that was left on the tables. Gene Wild long time NAFEXer who has 800
>varieties of apples left the following:
>
>Grimes Golden, Gold Russet, Milton, Scott Winter, Chieftain, Beni No Mai,
>Shizuka, Dakota Gold, Hokuto, Prairie Spy, Sweet 16, Yellow Transparent,
>Cornell Red, Jona Grimes Standard, Burgundy, Empire, Red June, Enterprise,
>Hidden Rose, Quinte, Turley Winesap, Goodland, Secor, Paula Red and
>Mollies Delicious.
>
>Also left were the following walnut varieties, Sparks 129, Kwik Krop,
>Davidson and Surprise.
>
>Don't ask for their descriptions as I know very few. Maybe someone on the
>net can help with that. All I ask is reimburse me for the postage.
>
>Jerry Lehman
>7780 Persimmon St.
>Terre Haute, IN 47802
>
>PS. Mollies Delicous... is!

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------------------------------

Message: 25
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 08:14:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: Melissa Kacalanos <mijwiz@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [NAFEX] Availability of grafting wood-my tree list for
       future  reference
To: North American Fruit Explorers <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <941363.17098.qm@web31910.mail.mud.yahoo.com">941363.17098.qm@web31910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

I hereby nominate Sarah to be Grand Germplasm Curator of the North. You have a real ark up there.

Oh, and thanks, Sarah, for the honeyberry seeds. Although for such an early fruit, they still require an ironic amount of patience, as the seedlings are very slow-growing. You sent more seeds than I had room for, so I shared them with 3 other gardeners in my area.

Getting back to gov't germplasm stinginess, I can imagine a day where amateur gardeners are so well organized, via the web, that we could conveniently find and request just about any grafting wood we want from our fellow amateurs. We can do that now of course, but I can see it getting easier with better organization. At some point, gardeners might be so well organized, there will be no need for these government germplasm banks.

As long as we're paying for these banks with our tax dollars, though, they'd better distribute stuff to us.

Melissa

--- On Fri, 4/2/10, Sarah Kehler Ewing <skkewing@yahoo.com> wrote:

> From: Sarah Kehler Ewing <skkewing@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [NAFEX] Availability of grafting wood-my tree list for future reference
> To: "North American Fruit Explorers" <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Date: Friday, April 2, 2010, 4:57 PM
> I love the idea!? If you can't
> beat em', join em'!
>
> I have a huge collection that hopefully will survive up
> here so that I can share it.





------------------------------

Message: 26
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 10:39:12 -0500
From: "Ernest Plutko" <ernestplutko@wiktel.com>
Subject: Re: [NAFEX] Apple preferences of bears
To: nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <380-22010415153912281@wiktel.com">380-22010415153912281@wiktel.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

There are a lot of bears here in Northern Minnesota.  Occasionally
one will hurt an apple tree climbing for apples but they aren't a
real nuisance.  People are much more dangerous than black bears.

---- Original Message ----
From: Jwlehman@aol.com
To: nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: RE: [NAFEX] Apple preferences of bears
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 07:53:47 EDT

>
>I really feel sorry for those of you who must live with bears. They
>have to
>be the absoulout worst wildlife problem for fruit growers. They
>aren't in
>this area yet, but if I see one here it will be a dead bear!  Good
>luck!
>
>OK PETA, have at me.
>
>Jerry




------------------------------

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