North American Fruit Explorers mailing list at ibiblio

[road's end farm <organic101@linkny.com>]

On Dec 15, 2007, at 1:20 AM, Mark & Helen Angermayer wrote:

>   I wasn't suggesting nicotine was approved for organic use, rather my point was just because something is natural doesn't mean it's automatically safer than a synthetic.  

And organic growers are perfectly aware of that. I've never heard anyone who knows anything about the subject argue otherwise. Arsenic is natural, after all. 


> <x-tad-smaller> If you know of any, I'd be interested in any university studies that have made a go of organic fruit production in the Midwest.  
> </x-tad-smaller>

Not really my area and can't spend much time researching this; but I just googled "organic apples Midwest" and found, on the first page of hits, reference to a number of growers doing this; and to a number of university studies in process. One link mentioned "organic orchards projects ongoing at Michigan State University, Iowa State University, the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, and starting at the University of Wisconsin-Madison" so you might look into that. There wasn't a link to those studies in that article, but you could look up the universities and contact them. -- I don't know what stage those studies are at; it's my experience with universities that interest in research in anything organic usually follows many years of individual growers working out what's possible; the universities lag, but eventually get on board.

That one page of results also produced reference to a number of farms growing and selling organic apples in the Midwest. So I suspect it is possible.

As far as the rest of your post: I'm not an apple grower, let alone an apple grower in your area; so I don't feel competent to advise you as to possible methods of dealing with the problems you had. You could, if you felt like it, try googling for addresses and contacting some of the people who are apparently actually doing this, and ask them.

Of course, you might find out that whatever they're doing doesn't seem to you that it would suit your particular operation: it's possible, for instance, that you might think that whatever they suggested required more labor than you felt able to supply; or that they might be using variety selection, and you might not want to switch to the varieties that work for them; or there might be other things about your operation that might preclude your taking their advice. Or you might try what works for them, and it still might not work for you. (Farming is like that, organic or not.) So maybe you won't be an organic grower. OK by me.

On Dec 15, 2007, at 7:06 AM, Alan Haigh wrote:
>   I have, of course, read similar studies as those you mention but they are not at all holistic in the economic sense.  

I assumed you hadn't read such studies as you posted:

On Dec 14, 2007, at 1:37 AM, Alan Haigh wrote:

> organic agriculture produces far more calories in ratio to those put into it than conventional agriculture.  But conventional agriculture produces more food in a land use to food quantity ratio.

which is what those studies address. I took a fast look at the particular cites I sent again and at least some of them do address the economic aspect. In general they state that labor tends to be higher, which I would agree is common in organic agriculture though it's probably not so in all cases. If you had said "conventional agriculture produces more food in a human hours to food quantity ratio", then I would have agreed with you; but I don't agree with the statement you actually made.

On Dec 15, 2007, at 7:06 AM, Alan Haigh wrote:
>  
>   Land that is enriched with organic matter will of course become more fertile over time but this is an expensive and labor intensive process.  
>  
And what is the long term cost of allowing farmland to become gradually less fertile over time? and the long term cost of depletion of resources implied in the statement you made that "organic agriculture provides far more calories in ration to those put into it than conventional agriculture"?

I would say that the answer to those questions is that we don't actually know; but that failing to account for them makes other economic calculations suspect.

> Organic has become a huge commercial brand world-wide and the public in general often believes that it is the only alternative to ruinous agricultural practices.  Unfortunately, as agri-business  embraces the profitability of this brand they are beginning to find ways to engage in similarly ruinous practices but still make profits on the brand-name.
On that one I agree with you.

And now I have to try to get some other work done ...

--Rivka
Finger Lakes NY; zone 5 mostly