North American Fruit Explorers mailing list at ibiblio

[hans brinkmann <hans-brinkmann@t-online.de>]

Hallo Mark,

I agree with you in any of your words! Very interesting and also sad! 
Your name sounds German or Austrian origin...
The average farmer is the last part of the chain. At top are the 
international food-industry companies. Most are American!

In Germany a very large farmer told me a joke:
"Q: Do you know, why we are fixing a brickstone onto our babies breast?
A: they have to learn to cry and to complain very early"
He told me, we (large) farmers are needing always smaller farmers for 
complaining and suffering...
To receive more subventions... We (large) are earning well...
Because most farmers association heads are also only very large farmers, 
finally almost all
subvention programs at the EU are just supporting the big and very big 
farmers.
We have plenty farms at the former East Germany which are receiving each 
year subventions of more
or much more than 1 Million US $ per year/per farm from the EU 
administration. But smaller farms SHALL die....

Like this it is easy for Germany to produce e.g. very cheap subventioned 
sugar or some cattle meat.
Finally this subventioned meat is sold under world market prices inside 
some African countries.
To be out of Europe market, but to destroy completely African domestic 
meat prices.
Our sugar which is sold less than the world market price (of cane-sugar) 
is destroying also sugar producing countries.
They have to live from their sugar production - for us Germans it is 
only a product of subventions to keep farmers busy.
Our sugar production is more expensive than sugar cane production.

The world-wheat-price is made 100% at American exchange-places (I do not 
now the right word) like Chicago.
The world coffee price is also made at New York and London only. At the 
moment it is quite high,
but not because the producers are getting more, but because more 
wonderful Hedgefonds and others are just
speculating and making profit - not at all the producing countries.
By the way the origin country for coffee and wheat is Ethiopia!
With cocoa, it is the same sad story: Speculants are making profit up to 
8 times (average) till the cocoa is reaching
the factory - in our Western Countries!

Europeans and Americans are controlling really much. Now America has a 
Bank crisis and we Europeans, the Asians,
Chinese and the Japanese got it from you. Few German federal (?) banks 
are even shivering a little...
If you have summer holidays, our German fuel prices are increasing 
because your people need more fuel (for your holidays)
than you are able to raffinate. American companies are just buying from 
Europe the ready fuel. If your winter is colder
or longer we have the same shortage of fuel at Europe, because America 
is buying more.
And now everybody is crying because China is buying also more energy, 
food and sources from the world market...

China has also an increasing ecological food production e.g. for the 
German market. Our own ecological producing (organic?)
farmers are less supported than conventional farmers at the moment at 
Germany.
Because of our conservative Government (also at EU level). In Germany 
farmers are traditionally voting conservative.
(German conservative means in general not like your conservatives, but 
more like your democrats). Anyhow at the moment,
those farmers are making better profit than conventional farmers. But I 
am sure the body work is also much more.

Right now they told at TV: The wheat price is responsible for 1 percent 
of the price for 1 bun (roll) at Germany!
Some years ago was  a simple calculation: Europeans are eating approx. 
half of the amount of meat like Americans.
If the rest of the wold would like to eat as much meat like Europeans, 
the world's surface is not sufficient to produce that meat.
Probably with energy and sources it's the same ratio/calculation...

ciao
Hans





Mark & Helen Angermayer schrieb:

> Thanks Steve and Rivka for your thoughtful comments.
>
> Rivka wrote:
> "Mark, did you start off raising pigs outdoors, and switch to confinement?
> If so, did you notice a difference in the flavor and texture of the meat?"
>
> I started off in confinement (actually the first pigs I raised were in an
> old milk barn for 4-H, but that doesn't really count).  I have seen and are
> familiar with outside, semi-confinement, and total confinement operations,
> but I've not personally raised pigs outside so I can't comment much about
> the taste of pig meat from dirt operations.  However, I would expect it to
> be more flavorful because of a more diverse diet.  That's certainly my
> experience with eggs.  With regard to the flabby texture though, it's
> probably more of a function of how the animal was slaughtered vs. what was
> fed.  Animals slaughtered under stress exhibit what's called pale, soft,
> exudative meat (PSE), or under long periods of stress Dark, Firm, Dry (DFD).
> Genetics also plays a role, as some animals are more stress prone than
> others.
>
> Rivka wrote:
> "I would say the real *problem* is the unbelievably cheap farmgate food
> prices. You're entirely correct that many farmers are just barely getting
> by, even if they are running large operations; and many can't manage even
> getting by, and go out of business. This is at least partially because many
> customers, though apparently perfectly willing to pay large extra amounts to
> buy produce already cut up into pieces, hamburger already formed for them
> into patties, and much of their food precooked; and also perfectly willing
> to pay several times the price of a pair of basic jeans to get the brand
> they prefer; are entirely unwilling to pay what it costs to produce quality
> in the food to begin with."
>
> Boy, I have mixed emotions about this.  In one sense I agree with you.  The
> amount of materialism, consumerism, marketing, etc. in America disgusts me a
> little, and cheap food (and other cheap goods) have made that possible.
> Still, I think we Americans (or the developed world in general) have been so
> well off for so long, we've forgotten what scarcity of food is like.  As
> such, some peoples' vision of what farming should be is 50 years old and if
> we go back to practices 50 years old we'll have yields 50 years old.  Then,
> I think with 300 million people, we would see scarcity.
>
>
> Steve wrote:
> "The most effective tool to address the various negative impacts of
> competition driving production costs down to the lowest common denominator
> is regulation and enforcement.  This is not perfectly efficient, but it
> gives all producers a (more) level playing field. Not all aspects of a
> regulatory scheme need to be run by the government:  organic agriculture
> certification is privately run, but at some level there must be a government
> stick waiting in the wings to enforce the regulation/law.  There are other
> complementary forms pressure for change (think baby seals, whose harvest I
> didn't necessarily oppose) or boycotts of sweatshop products, etc., but
> ultimately voluntary programs are not sufficient because low price outweighs
> consumer concerns--one physically can't educate one's self about even a
> fraction of the environmental and moral aspects of one's purchases. And some
> (read most) consumers want the lowest possible price even knowing the issues
> involved because they don't believe that their own behavior makes any
> difference.  Nonetheless, sometimes huge purchasers can have a direct effect
> on production methods as a result of broad, but vague, social pressure:
> McDonald's demand for better conditions for its suppliers' laying hens or
> Wal-Mart's requirement that packaging materials be reduced by 10% for
> products it purchases are two good examples."
>
> I see what you're saying and it's a much larger question.  I agree pure
> laissez-faire doesn't work  Of course the problem with solving things
> politically is that special interests (environmental and welfare groups, as
> well as business) can force policy decisions that have a big (although
> sometimes unobvious) impact on regular folks.  If people want change, I
> prefer examples like the ones you list (McDonald's, Walmart).  It seems to
> me more consumer-driven.
>
> Rivka wrote:
>
> "I agree that most farmers aren't greedy. I think in fact most greedy people
> are not going to become, or remain, farmers; the amount of work, attention,
> skill, and investment it takes to succeed in any kind of farming will, in
> current society, bring you higher financial return doing all sorts of other
> things. As with any large group of people, there are of course exceptions.
> Blowing up entire groves of trees to try to get rid of a bird problem is
> certainly unusual behaviour."
>
> You hit the nail on the head.  Farming is not what you do, it's who you are.
> I only sold out and quit because of a severe back injury, and in fact I
> still haven't quit, as I'm now trying to farm my backyard, with fruit trees
> :-)
>
> And I agree, using a bomb to get rid of birds seems excessive.
>
> Mark
> Zone 5 Kansas
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: roads end farm
> To: North American Fruit Explorers
> Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 7:31 AM
> Subject: Re: [NAFEX] You Think You Got Pest Problems? OFF-TOPIC
>
>
>
> On Aug 19, 2007, at 10:00 PM, Mark & Helen Angermayer wrote:
>
>
>  Being in the swine industry for many years
>
>
> Mark, did you start off raising pigs outdoors, and switch to confinement? If
> so, did you notice a difference in the flavor and texture of the meat?
>
> Much of this is a matter of personal taste, of course. I buy, whenever
> possible, meat from animals raised at least partly outdoors by small-scale
> farmers. Although it's not my only reason for doing this, I have noticed
> that when I do get standard grocery meat (presumably from confinement
> operations), the meat, while often more tender, seems to me to be tasteless
> and often bad-textured. I once got some brand-name pork that I can only
> describe as having a flabby texture. I've never bought the stuff again.
>
>
> the real benefit is the unbelievably cheap food prices.
>
>
> I would say the real *problem* is the unbelievably cheap farmgate food
> prices. You're entirely correct that many farmers are just barely getting
> by, even if they are running large operations; and many can't manage even
> getting by, and go out of business. This is at least partially because many
> customers, though apparently perfectly willing to pay large extra amounts to
> buy produce already cut up into pieces, hamburger already formed for them
> into patties, and much of their food precooked; and also perfectly willing
> to pay several times the price of a pair of basic jeans to get the brand
> they prefer; are entirely unwilling to pay what it costs to produce quality
> in the food to begin with.
>
> Note that I said "many" customers. It's true that there are people eating
> almost nothing but beans and rice because they can't afford anything else.
> There are people who, because of their finances, have no access to cooking
> facilities, and are stuck in a nasty trap in which they can't save by doing
> their own cooking. And there are certainly also people who will pay for
> quality; some of whom have trouble finding it. But I think there are very
> many people, at least in the USA, who have no idea what either a tomato or a
> pork chop can taste like; as well as some who just don't care. And I don't
> have a lot of sympathy for people who have six cases of soda pop in the cart
> but complain that the fruit costs too much.
>
> I agree that most farmers aren't greedy. I think in fact most greedy people
> are not going to become, or remain, farmers; the amount of work, attention,
> skill, and investment it takes to succeed in any kind of farming will, in
> current society, bring you higher financial return doing all sorts of other
> things. As with any large group of people, there are of course exceptions.
> Blowing up entire groves of trees to try to get rid of a bird problem is
> certainly unusual behaviour.
>
> --Rivka
> Finger Lakes NY; zone 5 mostly
>
>
>
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