North American Fruit Explorers mailing list at ibiblio

["loneroc" <loneroc@mwt.net>]

Hi Mark,

 

Thanks for the input,  I appreciate the note on the farmer's dilemma and didn't mean to equate hog-farmers to Hitler as I may have sounded.  Morality operates on a continuum of better or worse (at least for me), not an absolute good/evil dichotomy.  The economic issues are essentially the same for producers of any product.  Pure laissez-faire economics is completely insufficient to achieve any sort of policy goal--it merely encourages, in fact demands, producers to externalize social, environmental (and even animal welfare) costs of their products in an effort to reach the lowest possible market price.

 

The most effective tool to address the various negative impacts of competition driving production costs down to the lowest common denominator is regulation and enforcement.  This is not perfectly efficient, but it gives all producers a (more) level playing field. Not all aspects of a regulatory scheme need to be run by the government:  organic agriculture certification is privately run, but at some level there must be a government stick waiting in the wings to enforce the regulation/law.  There are other complementary forms pressure for change (think baby seals, whose harvest I didn't necessarily oppose) or boycotts of sweatshop products, etc., but ultimately voluntary programs are not sufficient because low price outweighs consumer concerns--one physically can't educate one's self about even a fraction of the environmental and moral aspects of one's purchases. And some (read most) consumers want the lowest possible price even knowing the issues involved because they don't believe that their own behavior makes any difference.  Nonetheless, sometimes huge purchasers can have a direct effect on production methods as a result of broad, but vague, social pressure:  McDonald's demand for better conditions for its suppliers' laying hens or Wal-Mart's requirement that packaging materials be reduced by 10% for products it purchases are two good examples.

 

There are often more efficient market driven methods for achieving a goal than straight regulation:  a two dollar per gallon tax on gasoline with the tax going to retool the US energy sector would be much more efficient way to decrease greenhouse gas production than merely legislating an improvement in gasoline standards, but the latter seems easier to accomplish politically.

 

But getting back to Tom's original starling link, I expect a farmer to try to do something to attack or dissuade any pest, but a bird bomb is not a method that I, or I think, most people would applaud.  Until this guy (and not just his methods) is taken care of I'm not going to buy any of those late spring New Zealand Braeburns that I enjoy after my own harvest starts to wane.

 

Steve Herje, Lone Rock,  SW WI..........

 

......where 12" of rain over the past two days has partially submerged my car, though my bermed fruit trees have remained above water.  This month has been the wettest month ever here.  One of those extreme weather effects of global warming?

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Mark & Helen Angermayer

To: North American Fruit Explorers

Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2007 9:00 PM

Subject: Re: [NAFEX] You Think You Got Pest Problems? OFF-TOPIC

Ioneroc wrote:

 

 

"But this guy is a cruel, greedy @$%?!--like the farmers around here who stuff 10,000 hogs into a small barn like wall-to-wall pork carpeting."

 

Hi Steve,

 

As a former pig farmer, I guess I was one of those greedy so and so's who had wall to wall pork carpeting.  But there is another side and it's not necessarily about getting rich.  Like almost all farming it's about keeping costs low enough to remain competitive.  There are less and less operations with hogs on dirt.  The reason is simply it is harder and harder to remain competitive without confinement operations.  Sweden passed laws essentially banning confinement operations, and it comes as no surprise they no longer have a hog industry to speak of.  Being in the swine industry for many years, I don't think the meat is at all unhealthy either.  Because of parasite risks, I would much rather eat pork grain fed on concrete than pigs on dirt.  It's true pigs may be happier on dirt under ideal conditions, but they are probably unhappier on 0 degree days, vs. pigs in climate controlled buildings.

 

I'm rambling a bit here, but the real benefit is the unbelievably cheap food prices.  The reason dirt farmers can stay in business selling their grain for the same price their fathers got, is because they farm twice the amount of acreage.  Same thing with livestock farmers.  More or less, the only way to get a wage increase is to increase production and with few exceptions, dirt operations are not nearly as productive as confinement.  As a farmer, you'll wait long and hard for a price increase, instead you have to produce more.

 

Mark

Kansas

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: loneroc

To: North American Fruit Explorers

Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 6:12 AM

Subject: Re: [NAFEX] You Think You Got Pest Problems?

I can deal with someone pulling the wings off of flies, having poisoned plenty myself.  I can deal with folks who quickly kill animals and eat them--I am not a vegetarian.  Like logging companies who strip-mine vast mountainsides of trees:  it's cheaper that way, you know, it costs hundreds of thousands of dollars to timber selectively or sustainably.  Oooo, it costs me so much money to treat waste water before dumping it!  Why do I have to pay minimum wage?  Maybe slaves are cheaper in the long run.  Since this guy has to export to Europe or the US to survive, I'd say protests and boycotts of any fruit distributor who EVER buys another apple from this guy again would be the free market solution.  Starlings would be the least of his economic nightmares.  Spread the word:-)

 

loneroc

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Thomas Olenio

To: 'North American Fruit Explorers'

Sent: Friday, August 17, 2007 2:13 PM

Subject: [NAFEX] You Think You Got Pest Problems?

Hi,

 

Here is a fellow with real pest problems.  Claims they cost him $300,000 last year in lost crops.

 

Massive explosion leaves thousands of birds dead

An orchardist who regularly mounts attacks on roosting starlings has allegedly left thousands of birds dead and dying after commissioning a bird bomb for his latest effort.

 

 

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/4168476a7693.html#Scene_1

 

Having been frustrated by pests myself it is hard to decide where I stand on his actions.

 

Later,

Tom

---

_______________________________________________
nafex mailing list
nafex@lists.ibiblio.org

Reproduction of list messages or archives is not allowed.
This includes distribution on other email lists or reproduction on web sites.
Permission to reproduce is NEVER granted, so don't claim you have permission!

**YOU MUST BE SUBSCRIBED TO POST!**
Posts from email addresses that are not subscribed are discarded.
No exceptions. 
----
To subscribe or unsubscribe, go to the bottom of this page (also can be used to change other email options):
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex

File attachments are NOT stripped by this list.
TAKE STEPS TO PROTECT YOURSELF FROM COMPUTER VIRUSES!
Please do not send binary files.
Use plain text ONLY in emails!

NAFEX web site:   http://www.nafex.org/

---

_______________________________________________
nafex mailing list
nafex@lists.ibiblio.org

Reproduction of list messages or archives is not allowed.
This includes distribution on other email lists or reproduction on web sites.
Permission to reproduce is NEVER granted, so don't claim you have permission!

**YOU MUST BE SUBSCRIBED TO POST!**
Posts from email addresses that are not subscribed are discarded.
No exceptions. 
----
To subscribe or unsubscribe, go to the bottom of this page (also can be used to change other email options):
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex

File attachments are NOT stripped by this list.
TAKE STEPS TO PROTECT YOURSELF FROM COMPUTER VIRUSES!
Please do not send binary files.
Use plain text ONLY in emails!

NAFEX web site:   http://www.nafex.org/

---

Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.8/941 - Release Date: 8/7/07 4:06 PM

---

_______________________________________________
nafex mailing list
nafex@lists.ibiblio.org

Reproduction of list messages or archives is not allowed.
This includes distribution on other email lists or reproduction on web sites.
Permission to reproduce is NEVER granted, so don't claim you have permission!

**YOU MUST BE SUBSCRIBED TO POST!**
Posts from email addresses that are not subscribed are discarded.
No exceptions. 
----
To subscribe or unsubscribe, go to the bottom of this page (also can be used to change other email options):
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex

File attachments are NOT stripped by this list.
TAKE STEPS TO PROTECT YOURSELF FROM COMPUTER VIRUSES!
Please do not send binary files.
Use plain text ONLY in emails!

NAFEX web site:   http://www.nafex.org/