North American Fruit Explorers mailing list at ibiblio

[kathryn stout <kathrynwrites@yahoo.com>]

I planted a clump of rhubarb not exactly under my
grapevine, but between the post supporting it and a
blueberry bush. The rhubarb got shaded out and
eventually disappeared. No sun, no photosynthesis, no
energy for building stalks and crowns. I suppose
competition from mint, and the fact that I tended to
walk through that spot didn't help either. 

I think this rhubarb probably got plenty of compost.
At the beginning when I first planted my grapes I gave
them each a wheelbarrow (5 cu. ft.) load of compost
each spring. After a few years I decided the Concord
was plenty vigorous enough and stopped feeding it. I
also took out my Reliance (decided the flavor was
uninteresting) and replaced it with a new Canadice. I
didn't feed that new vine much either, if at all, and
it sat there, hardly growing, even showing light green
or yellowish leaves, until I gave it a whole
wheelbarrow load of compost. That season it started to
take off. So. Maybe younger vines need more, to get
established, and maybe some varieties are naturally
more vigorous (and need less feeding, or less N) than
others. It may also depend on soil.

 My soil is sandy loam for about 1 foot, under that
pure sand and gravel as far down as anyone knows.
Water goes through it like a sieve. It takes a lot of
compost and mulch to hold water--and nitrogen--for
most plants, except those that thrive on drought and
poor soil. (I would not put grapes in that category
although Concord...has enough of the wild N. American
grape in it that ??? Before I planted my grapes I had
a "weedy" wild grape growing there. There is still a
little piece of it that tries to come up, under my
Concord vine. There are huge wild grapes that grow up
the forest trees, north of my garden--in the same
soil, with a great deal of leaf mold. Their fruit
isn't worth eating though. )
 
I wouldn't plant rhubarb under grapes--unless you are
trying to get rid of the rhubarb, and you don't care
if it grows.
I do have a patch of bloodroot I planted that thrives,
under my Concord vine. It gets sun early in the
spring, then shade in the summer after it has bloomed.
There's mulch or compost there. In other words the
conditions mimic those of a deciduous forest. You
might try early-spring blooming forest wildflowers, if
you want something pretty that will grow under a
grapevine. 
My grapes were originally 4-arm Kniffen but actually I
prune 1st dead wood, then any unhealthy or
unproductive looking wood, then leave fruiting wood
(what grew last year--especially what grew in the
sun--it stores energy for fruiting in the cane) except
where it exceeds the space I have (about 9 feet of
trellis for each vine, about one or two feet thick). I
have given up trying to get my vines to look like
pictures in books. They bear heavily--the Canadice
started to last year after the load of compost--most
years without any sprays. (I have used Kocide early in
the season to prevent black rot, some years.) It is
possible to grow grapes organically. Most disease can
be stopped with sun and air circulation. (And if need
be, Kocide or another copper spray is "organic.")
 Kathryn 
Zone 5 Massachusetts--no fruit trees blooming yet, we
had 3-4" of snow a week ago, it's melted now, the
first bulbs are blooming

--- Joe Hecksel <jhecksel@voyager.net> wrote:
> Hello:
> 
> Does anybody have experience planting rhubarb under
> grapevines?
> 
> I bought a package of rhubarb seed and now have 14
> plants.  I am 
> looking for a place to put them.  The grapes are
> primarily French-
> American hybrids trained to Geneva Double Curtain.  
> 
> It certainly looks like there will be plenty of
> light until June 15, or 
> so and I much prefer rhubarb to nettles, thistles
> and catnip that now 
> want to grow there.
> 
> Any comments or observations will be appreciated.
> -- 
> Joe Hecksel
> Personal Webpage http://my.voyager.net/~jhecksel
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nafex mailing list
> nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
> Most questions can be answered here:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex
> File attachments are accepted by this list; please
> do not send binary files, plain text ONLY!
> Message archives are here:
> https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/nafex
> To view your user options go to: 
>
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/options/nafex/XXXX@XXXX
> (where XXXX@XXXX is 
> YOUR email address)
> NAFEX web site:   http://www.nafex.org/


=====


__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo
http://search.yahoo.com
>From kathrynwrites@yahoo.com  Tue Apr 15 23:09:16 2003
Return-Path: <kathrynwrites@yahoo.com>
Delivered-To: nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
Received: from web21306.mail.yahoo.com (web21306.mail.yahoo.com
        [216.136.129.60])
        by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with SMTP id 920422002C
        for <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 23:09:15 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <20030416030914.74658.qmail@web21306.mail.yahoo.com>
Received: from [131.229.61.102] by web21306.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP;
        Tue, 15 Apr 2003 20:09:14 PDT
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 20:09:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: kathryn stout <kathrynwrites@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [NAFEX] "Sour Chari" and "CKVL#1": Joe Brown
To: North American Fruit Explorers <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
In-Reply-To: <003401c303b8$a9270b80$93a89bcf@OFFICE>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-BeenThere: nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1
Precedence: list
Reply-To: North American Fruit Explorers <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Id: North American Fruit Explorers <nafex.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex>,
        <mailto:nafex-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/nafex>
List-Post: <mailto:nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex>,
        <mailto:nafex-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 03:09:16 -0000















I never sprayed my cherry trees for any insect, except
to use a hard spray of water against black aphids on
sweet cherry. I did have grubs of plum circulio in
some cherries (characteristic half-moon scar of
circulio on the fruit). The Starkrimson sweet was
affected worse than the Montmorency. I got a lot of
Montmorency that were okay. I theorized that the
circulio didn't like sour fruit as much. It may have
been also that the sour cherry bloomed (before or
after sweet I can't remember. I cut down my sweet
cherry tree in 2000) later than other fruit trees.
The circulio was more interested in apricot, plum, and
peach that bloomed earlier. 
Is there a cherry that ripens its fruit in August?
Does it bloom later than other cherries? Maybe there's
a way to escape the circulios's most active egg-laying
period.
I had some friends who grew Nanking bush cherries. The
cherries were good--tart, like pie cherries, but
edible out of hand. Didn't seem to have any problems
with circulio grubs, or any other insects.
You could always sort out the grub-infested cherries.
If you have circulio the scar is visible on the
outside, and the fruit tends to be misshapen (the grub
eating it, around the pit). Eat the ones that are
perfect on the outside and there's no weevil grub
inside.
Birds are fond of weevil-grub infested cherries. Extra
protein. A treat, to them. 


Kathryn\
Zone 5, Massacusetts







--- Greg or Marie Jordan <mgjordan@concentric.net>
wrote:
> The only real insect problem I have in Colo. is
> BIRDS.
> Greg Jordan
> Zone / 5
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Charles Paradise 
>   To: North American Fruit Explorers 
>   Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2003 12:49 PM
>   Subject: [NAFEX] "Sour Chari" and "CKVL#1": Joe
> Brown
> 
> 
>   Joe Brown,
>   You mention that in Kentucky, "Sour Chari" and
> "CKVL#1" have "no major insect or disease problems".
>   I find this fascinating because the two sour
> cherries I have grown in the past, Montmorency and
> North Star, both had major insect problems, I mean I
> could not get any fruit at all without plenty of
> insecticide spraying. Since I have no time anymore
> for spraying, I'm asking for clarification, are you
> getting these cherries without any spraying? 
> 
>   Let me expand the question to others, is ANYBODY
> getting cherries without spraying? I have heard the
> statement made that a very small cherry will be
> unbothered because the cherry is too small for the
> insect to get into and lay eggs there's not enough
> room in the fruit to receive an egg deposit.
> Therefore, while we would all like big juicy
> cherries, is it possible for us to "settle" on a
> cherry variety that yields small fruit, but does not
> need spraying? And if it is possible for us to
> settle for us to "settle" on a small-cherry variety,
> is there any high-yielding small-cherry variety
> propagated? Or a specific strain grown from seed
> that will throw a cherry tree yielding small
> cherries?
> 
>   Charlie Paradise
>   zone 5 / Massachusetts
> 
>   On Thursday, April 3, 2003, at 08:29 AM, Brown,
> Joe R wrote:
> 
> 
>     You wrote:
> 
>      
> 
>     A while back someone posted a method to access
> the Hidden Springs
> 
>     nursery catalog online and I noticed that Hidden
> Springs offer two sour
> 
>     cherries on Mahaleb rootstock (which I can't
> use). These two varieties
> 
>     were "Sour Chari" and "CKVL#1". Both were listed
> for zones 4-8. I
> 
>     searched around and couldn't find out anything
> worthwhile about either
> 
>     of these. Does anyone have additional
> information about either of these
> 
>     two varieties? Rodney in zone 4
> 
>      
> 
>     My response: 
> 
>      
> 
>     Rodney,
> 
>      
> 
>     I have CKVL#1.  I got it 2 years ago ?no major
> insect or disease problems.  It does get powdery
> mildew.  I have not tasted the cheeries but I may
> get some this year.   Post your question again this
> summer and I can tell you how they taste.
> 
>      
> 
> 
> 
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
>   _______________________________________________
>   nafex mailing list
>   nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
>   Most questions can be answered here:
>   http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex
>   File attachments are accepted by this list; please
> do not send binary files, plain text ONLY!
>   Message archives are here:
>   https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/nafex
>   To view your user options go to: 
>  
>
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/options/nafex/XXXX@XXXX
> (where XXXX@XXXX is 
>   YOUR email address)
>   NAFEX web site:   http://www.nafex.org/
> > _______________________________________________
> nafex mailing list
> nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
> Most questions can be answered here:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex
> File attachments are accepted by this list; please
> do not send binary files, plain text ONLY!
> Message archives are here:
> https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/nafex
> To view your user options go to: 
>
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/options/nafex/XXXX@XXXX
> (where XXXX@XXXX is 
> YOUR email address)
> NAFEX web site:   http://www.nafex.org/
> 


=====


__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo
http://search.yahoo.com
>From lonrom@hevanet.com  Tue Apr 15 23:23:37 2003
Return-Path: <lonrom@hevanet.com>
Delivered-To: nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
Received: from pop.hevanet.com (pop.hevanet.com [198.5.254.15])
        by happyhouse.metalab.unc.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FE902003D
        for <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 23:23:37 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from [130.94.163.55] (ts05-ip35.hevanet.com [130.94.163.55])
        by pop.hevanet.com (8.11.6p2/8.11.6p2) with ESMTP id h3G3NWx48043
        for <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 20:23:33 -0700 (PDT)
User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 20:23:32 -0700
Subject: Re: [NAFEX] gooseberry question
From: "Lon J. Rombough" <lonrom@hevanet.com>
To: North American Fruit Explorers <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <BAC21AC4.D48A%lonrom@hevanet.com>
In-Reply-To: <BAC21CC1.4084%bamboogrove@cmug.com>
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/alternative;
   boundary="MS_Mac_OE_3133283012_106441_MIME_Part"
X-BeenThere: nafex@lists.ibiblio.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1
Precedence: list
Reply-To: North American Fruit Explorers <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Id: North American Fruit Explorers <nafex.lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex>,
        <mailto:nafex-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/nafex>
List-Post: <mailto:nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sympa@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=HELP>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/nafex>,
        <mailto:nafex-request@lists.ibiblio.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 03:23:37 -0000

> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

--MS_Mac_OE_3133283012_106441_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

There are a number of "spiny" gooseberry cultivars.  Invicta, I believe is a
common one.  The British usually classify the spiny types as "cookers" being
just for pies or preserves, as opposed to ones that can be eaten fresh.  The
spiny types are usually picked at the firm stage when they still have a fair
amount of tartness, both for flavor after being cooked and for firmness.

From: Judith Miller <paradisegds@yahoo.com>


Can anyone tell me what fruit might be masquerading as a gooseberry?  I got
a box of fruit from a friend last summer that she called gooseberries. The
fruit, though large, translucent, gold & hairy-spiny, was insipid and very
seedy.

There's one I know- Early Sulfur? (that may be the name)- is yellow and has
stiff hairs. I wouldn't call it large, though it's bigger by far than
Pixwell. If fully ripe, like many gooseberries, it's a bit bland. It's
early, bears well and is healthy, and good for cooking if not too ripe. I
eat them fresh at the full (over?) ripe stage.

-Rick


--MS_Mac_OE_3133283012_106441_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: [NAFEX] gooseberry question</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
There are a number of &quot;spiny&quot; gooseberry cultivars. &nbsp;Invicta=
, I believe is a common one. &nbsp;The British usually classify the spiny ty=
pes as &quot;cookers&quot; being just for pies or preserves, as opposed to o=
nes that can be eaten fresh. &nbsp;The spiny types are usually picked at the=
 firm stage when they still have a fair amount of tartness, both for flavor =
after being cooked and for firmness. &nbsp;<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE><BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<B>From: </B>Judith Miller &lt;paradisegds@yahoo.com&gt;<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>Can anyone tell me what fruit might be masquerading as a goose=
berry? &nbsp;I got a box of fruit from a friend last summer that she called =
gooseberries. The fruit, though large, translucent, gold &amp; hairy-spiny, =
was insipid and very seedy.<BR>
<BR>
There's one I know- Early Sulfur? (that may be the name)- is yellow and has=
 stiff hairs. I wouldn't call it large, though it's bigger by far than Pixwe=
ll. If fully ripe, like many gooseberries, it's a bit bland. It's early, bea=
rs well and is healthy, and good for cooking if not too ripe. I eat them fre=
sh at the full (over?) ripe stage.<BR>
<BR>
-Rick<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
</BODY>
</HTML>


--MS_Mac_OE_3133283012_106441_MIME_Part--